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T - Philosophy on Death
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REvolv3R
Developer


Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to join this discussion... I just want to give you a new way of seeing things.

Before I say this I should tell you that I have no idea of how daria handles this.

In a mmorpg server like daria's or akarra's every player sees (examples): what equipment other players have equipped, other players levels, their classes and where they are (coords).

Now how do you think this works? Well, most servers stores the data and sends the data out to all the clients that needs the data. That means that the server saves the data in the memory... Probably in some sort of array...

When you say that the server saves, you probably mean that the server makes a backup save in a database. Still this manual saving that you are talking about would work. But it wouldn't reduce a big amount of server load as long as the player population isn't huge, since the server still has to save everytime you do something. For example when you change coords, move stuff in inventory, equip stuff, kill something and gain exp and so on. I think you get my point.

Still, this manual saving could be a choice for people who like it but it won't make much difference in the server load as long as the player population isn't very high and if the server population grows huge you would still need to upgrade the server computer a bit since the memory wouldn't be enough :P
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Fallen Brother As I Hold Closed Your Side
I Fear This Wound Your Last
Mighty Earth Now Doth Drink Your Blood
And I Remember Days Long Past
Your Sacrifice So Great Rest Now Take Thy Sleep
For You Shall Not Awake Let Revenge Be Sweet

For When We March Your Sword Rides With Me


- Manowar (March for Revenge, Into glory ride Album, 1983)
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catslayer
Posts until end: 920


Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Moscow, Russia

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

REvolv3R wrote:

...
When you say that the server saves, you probably mean that the server makes a backup save in a database. Still this manual saving that you are talking about would work. But it wouldn't reduce a big amount of server load as long as the player population isn't huge, since the server still has to save everytime you do something. For example when you change coords, move stuff in inventory, equip stuff, kill something and gain exp and so on. I think you get my point.
...


Let me explain. Everything that happends in the game is stored in the server RAM and saving (auto or manual) is copying the content of RAM (not the whole, just what needed) somewhere, where this content won't disappear if the server suddenly "falls". As you know (or don't) the working speed of RAM is hundreds and thousands times faster than that of HDD (thank God, saves aren't done using streamers =P). And while the contetnts of RAM is written (I guess direct access is used, but anyways) no other actions can take place (main bus busy, only commands stored in the CPU's buffer can be executed). That is what happends when saving.

The question is: why do we actually have to save so often??? I don't remember, but I guess server didn't "fall" ten times a day. Did it?

Back On-topic: Introduce locations. PvP: locations where player doesn't suffer any penalties when died. Travelling: if died, character is teleported to the nearest/activated temple/obelisk/whatever and a FIXED amount of money is lost/dropped. Dungeons: if died, character loses money/items/etc (where you can get nice equip - you can lose it as well).

Phew, that's it for now.
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Enquillion
Posts until end: 700


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 326
Location: First lowbie dungeon

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm getting lost here. Are we looking for a way to relieve the server of tension or a way to make Dawn of Daria a single player game for those who wish to play one?

Don't say "both".
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catslayer
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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Location: Moscow, Russia

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enquillion wrote:
I'm getting lost here. Are we looking for a way to relieve the server of tension or a way to make Dawn of Daria a single player game for those who wish to play one?

Don't say "both".


none =P
lol, kidding. The goal was initially to make death concept more versatile, but then we came to discussing the amount of server load. P.S. Single player rules, but not in mmorpg...
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...so sayeth the wise Slayer.
[posts may be odd, if I'm sleepy]
[it's not "cat-slayer" (which would mean "cat that slays"), it's "catslayer" (which means "slayer of cats") therefore cutting my nick to "cat" is wrong]
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REvolv3R
Developer


Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catslayer wrote:
Let me explain....


Yeah, you are right, but if the server comp isn't "bad", it will still not affect gameplay much as long as the the server population isn't very huge... We could actually sit and talk about this for a very long time since there are several solutions and several problems. So let's get back on track and end the conversation about server load before it gets out of hand :p

Anyway, my general opinion is that the server should auto-save, otherwise "people" would start to complain about it the first time the server looses some data because of not auto-saving. To keep the ones who love manual saving happy I would force players to choose manual saving or auto-saving at character creation. After that it is pretty simple... one more Boolean in the character data that I would make the server check for each time it auto-saves Smile

About the manual saving: It is for the interested players to come with suggestions and ideas to how manual saving should be Smile

About the auto-saving: It is for the programmers and testers to decide Razz

Sorry about spelling/grammar, a bit tired. Oh and this is not written as a 'dev', only as a player Razz
_________________
Fallen Brother As I Hold Closed Your Side
I Fear This Wound Your Last
Mighty Earth Now Doth Drink Your Blood
And I Remember Days Long Past
Your Sacrifice So Great Rest Now Take Thy Sleep
For You Shall Not Awake Let Revenge Be Sweet

For When We March Your Sword Rides With Me


- Manowar (March for Revenge, Into glory ride Album, 1983)
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Enquillion
Posts until end: 700


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 326
Location: First lowbie dungeon

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then, for SP purposes the only auto-save should be made like in the BG games; when you leave a "party required area". Basically... exit dungeon, enter dungeon, etc. That, and when pinging out/exiting.

There needs to be no auto-save for modifying your inventory, seeing as single player by my definition means that you can't interact with others. Thus, no abuse (duplicating).

This would, however mean, that each player who went with the SP mode would have their own friggin' world that saved with them. Clearly, you summoning the great Necrowizard to reap the souls of every single bunny should not affect other bunnies than those in your own SP world.

Or would all these things be variables, and your own world would just be like an instance in WoW? Sounds like a solution, too...

An instance is a special copy of the dungeon for you and your party. The only players in this instance will be yourself and members in your party. No one else can enter this copy of the dungeon. This allows you your own personal dungeon without other outside interference. The dungeon is fully spawned and it is balanced and designed specifically for you and your party.

Example:

Party 1 enters Deadmines, an Instance dungeon. They enter copy A of the dungeon.
Party 2 comes along 20 minutes later and enters the Deadmines. They enter copy B of the dungeon, their own version. They do not come in contact with party 1, except perhaps if they both meet outside the instance.
Party 3 comes along an hour later. They enter copy C of the dungeon.


Just replace all "party" with "player" and it should reflect it properly...
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catslayer
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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Location: Moscow, Russia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

REvolv3R wrote:
...Yeah, you are right, but if the server comp isn't "bad", it will still not affect gameplay much as long as the the server population isn't very huge...

And when there's enough (for laggish autosaves) people on the server, you'll have to fix the code =) Better solve the problem before it starts it's existence.

Enquillion wrote:
Well then, for SP purposes the only auto-save should be made like in the BG games...

I tried to avoid comparing with BG myself, but it seems unavoidable =) So be it.

And I hope you weren't serious about instances. Didn't try WoW, but imho such things will kill any massiveness and multiplayerness of --orpg.
_________________
...so sayeth the wise Slayer.
[posts may be odd, if I'm sleepy]
[it's not "cat-slayer" (which would mean "cat that slays"), it's "catslayer" (which means "slayer of cats") therefore cutting my nick to "cat" is wrong]
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Enquillion
Posts until end: 700


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 326
Location: First lowbie dungeon

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, what do you expect? They want to make the MMORPG a SP game, of course it will ruin those aspects.
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