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T - Philosophy on Death
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Stant
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catslayer wrote:
1.I'm not posting without having read previously (I may miss something, but not the whole thing)

Well your post stated that you're completely against manual saves (which is a great position to take) and you stated positional saves which is an auto save, and a timed save which is auto... That leads one to believe that you skipped over the part about us saying it will auto save you upon exiting the client or pinging out, and having the client send the request to save is just plain stupid because you can have the server save like that and skip the messages from the clients all asking every 15 minutes for an autosave... That suggestion alone also leads one to believe that you missed the point of reducing server load and reducing traffic not severely increasing it by making every client request a save every 15 minutes. So you may have read, but you've missed two very valuable concepts, or at least neglected to understand them which is what I'm explaining now.

catslayer wrote:
2.I'm trying to say that manual saves will not add to the gameplay (anyone wants to object?) and should not be used as a replace of autosaves (is that the point?) that load a server.

No it won't add to the game play, it's a utility function not a play function. Saving should never be thought of as a way to enhance game play... It may affect gameplay for those that refuse or forget and they end up losing their gains... But then again, they'll learn to save quick, or learn to deal with the loses. Yes it is to replace the use of autosaves that the old server made every two minutes, which added a decent amount of load which translates to a slower game which is often confused for lag. But like I said before, there are those that will be totally against something like this, and likely they've never played a real RPG before and just wouldn't understand the importance of getting in the habbit of manual saving every chance you get. The whole point was to remove some loading and the easiest way is to remove most of the autosaving.

catslayer wrote:
3.I think, saves should be auto-, but not simultaneous, instead quest/location/time-based(each 15 minutes, if no other save occurred during the time)/whatever autosaves may be used.

If they're auto, how can they not be simultaneous? It's the server that does the autosaving, not the clients. Let's look at the current methods in use so that you understand them more fully. Currently, the server autosaves every 2 minutes, and saves you again upon exiting the client or dropping your connection. That is a crap load of saving going on and it covers your time based wish. So let's just throw that one out because it's already in. Location I like, but the problem is, it becomes the same thing as a manual save if you have to travel to that location in order to save... So in reality, it is a manual save, and it takes you away from what ever task you were working on. I believe it was said that the obelisks could be used as a save point... So because this is really a manual save, let's throw that request out too because it's not really what you want. You want something you don't have to think about doing. Now travelling between areas might be nice, but unfortunately a lot of people like to sit down in an area and harvest the spawns for xp and drops and never leave and would never get a save in out of fear of leaving and someone else taking over their harvesting spot. Quest saves I like as well... The problem is a great many people just don't like to quest at all, they like to hack and slash all day long... So this wouldn't be a viable method for a decent chunk of the community, as well as the fact that at some point, you will run out of quests to do and that function becomes completely useless to you because you can't do it anymore. So let's throw that one out due to the fact that it will be utilized much less then a manual save.

Let's review shall we? Questing saves are severely under utilized and can only be utilized until you have no more quests. Location based is the same thing as a manual if you have to travel to a spot to activate it, and travelling between areas just won't happen for a lot of people. Timed autosaves are already in on the server side because client side save requests would be doing nothing for reducing server load and making it auto by client request would be adding to net traffic between the server and all of the clients...

Sooooooo..... Got any other ideas?
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Dormeydo
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the server has to save everyone's data at the same time. It's better if it's every 4th min since you're loggin. That would spread the saves so the server won't overloaded when everyone's data is saved.
Plain and simple
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Lorsaelos
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that's what catslayer was implying, that is, "staggered" saves.

Edit: Merely start a repeating 3-minute timer from the beginning of a character's login til he/she logs out, and once more upon logout.

Only problem is it is that it can eventually be a lot of timers to handle server-side. I'm not sure if it would be particularly intensive for the server to handle, but surely it's less than doing it all at once.

Client-side timer would NOT be a good idea because if the user's computer/program freezes, then he/she loses all the data up to the last save. Also, it would be possible to hack this value to make it save as often as the client wants (unless server checks are in place to prevent it, but then that's more server work.)
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catslayer
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 Stant: Twisted Evil
(please mark statements with numbers for quoting purposes)
1. Yes, i'm completely against manual saves (and you seem to be too-manual-saving-addict to me=) and I'm for hierarchy of autosaves that may reduce server load and DON'T reduce gameplay. Because manual saves affect gameplay negatively. NO, you don't like to save, no the game doesn't start being more interesting, you just HAVE to save. As stated above =P I don't know any rpg that would win from saving. It would have lost without saving, but that is not a wish, that is a must.

2. Yes idea with client sending save requests is not a wise one, but it appeared during the process of typing. What I tried to say is that saves should be not simultaneous, but many small saves separated by some time intervals. And you didn't get it as well as I (in your opinion) didn't get the essence of topic. If you read my message more careful and attentive.. =P

And to reduce the amount of timers we (devs, actually) can group logging clients. For example each five minutes the group of simultaneously autosaved characters is formed. Or more/less than five, it can be calculated empirically later on.

3. As for location saves, I meant JUST autosaves when leaving/entering location, not go-there-click-here.

4. I now find Archosseus' idea almost satisfying. But imho the best saving system is:
>you log on/log off - your character is saved
>the client stops sending packets to the server (for some time) - your character is saved and exited from game (if isp-lags occur they don't usually last for a long. And if they do, you have to redial)
>each X minutes the group (see above) of clients is saved
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Enquillion
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It occurred to me, with a funny memory of Xofia in mind... well, rant:

Back in Akarra, I found a way to crash the server, I did it 3 times before it occurred to me that the server going down when I did *that* could be related to *that*. Then I did it 2 more times to confirm to Trance that it was indeed the cause. My point? Every time the server went up again, a low-HP Xofia (or aifoX rather) died to a flock of Lord's Birds.

Now, what if someone saves at a point where they will get chain killed? Die, reload, die. It doesn't have to be an intelligence issue, you can save at a seemingly safe spot and have monsters spawn on you. Would there be a history of saves? Or, would we be allowed to resurrect at an obelisk regardlessly?

Once again, I don't find that saving/reloading fits the concept of a MMORPG. Play a SP game. It's no fun to compete when no mistake can cause anywhere near permanent damage (only loss of time and effort).
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Xofia
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enquillion wrote:
It occurred to me, with a funny memory of Xofia in mind... well, rant:

Back in Akarra, I found a way to crash the server, I did it 3 times before it occurred to me that the server going down when I did *that* could be related to *that*. Then I did it 2 more times to confirm to Trance that it was indeed the cause. My point? Every time the server went up again, a low-HP Xofia (or aifoX rather) died to a flock of Lord's Birds.

Now, what if someone saves at a point where they will get chain killed? Die, reload, die. It doesn't have to be an intelligence issue, you can save at a seemingly safe spot and have monsters spawn on you. Would there be a history of saves? Or, would we be allowed to resurrect at an obelisk regardlessly?

Once again, I don't find that saving/reloading fits the concept of a MMORPG. Play a SP game. It's no fun to compete when no mistake can cause anywhere near permanent damage (only loss of time and effort).

So it was YOU who did that! Evil or Very Mad

At any rate, I agree with Enquillion. Saving and reloading are concepts that belong to single player games, and even then you're usually restricted to doing so at certain points. I'll just sit back and let the dev team figure out the most efficient way to save server data often enough that rollbacks won't be too bad, but not so often that the server lags too much.
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Lorsaelos
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enquillion wrote:
It occurred to me, with a funny memory of Xofia in mind... well, rant:

Back in Akarra, I found a way to crash the server, I did it 3 times before it occurred to me that the server going down when I did *that* could be related to *that*. Then I did it 2 more times to confirm to Trance that it was indeed the cause. My point? Every time the server went up again, a low-HP Xofia (or aifoX rather) died to a flock of Lord's Birds.

Now, what if someone saves at a point where they will get chain killed? Die, reload, die. It doesn't have to be an intelligence issue, you can save at a seemingly safe spot and have monsters spawn on you. Would there be a history of saves? Or, would we be allowed to resurrect at an obelisk regardlessly?

Once again, I don't find that saving/reloading fits the concept of a MMORPG. Play a SP game. It's no fun to compete when no mistake can cause anywhere near permanent damage (only loss of time and effort).

Why not just make it so when you die, your position is automatically saved at the last obelisk? This save would be the "latest" save made, so no others would allow you to respawn and die repeatedly as you mentioned.

I'm sorry, but this all seems like terrible simply stuff to me. I don't think the devs will have any problems in this area.

Let's keep the thread on-topic. We're discussing death "penalties." Everyone please look over the original post and the parts where we didn't fly off-topic.
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Dormeydo
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a new idea about this.

Every player who loggs in on the server recives a id from the server. The id is a the lowest possible number(not decimals)
The server allways saves the character with ID number X, and after that it idles for one sec(adjusteble), and then saves the character with the ID number x+1, and then idle for one sec and saves ID x+2 and so on...

For example;
the server saves ID #57
idles for 1 sec
sever checks if id #58 is in use, it is
the server saves ID #58
idles for 1 sec
sever checks if id #59 is in use, it's not
idles for 1 sec

The idle time could be aotomaticly adjusted depending on the nuber of clients that's connected

This would work, wouldn't it?
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Stant
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catslayer wrote:
(and you seem to be too-manual-saving-addict to me=)

Actually, no, I'm a total fan of having to do less work on my end, aka, auto saving, but the only way people discuss things is if there is at least one person on each side finding the flaws in their opponent's thoughts.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Enquillion
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're teleported back to the obelisk with everything you gained on the way? What's the difference (compare: Akarra)? That you can reload 5HP before death to retain your save location?
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