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T - Philosophy on Death
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LookinToDie
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Location: on my way..

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Origon wrote:
*sells an item for 5gc and gives the cash to Stant to hold for a minute*

*closes the game and loads the save when he still has the item*

*gets the $ back from Stant*


LookinToDie wrote:
Then again, inventory changes have to be saved all the way in any case.


And by this I meant exactly the solution to what you described above.. inventory is modified in your save file whether you want it or not. So you won't have the item you've sold when you load. However this way there's still hell of a lot of stuff to be saved.. not sure if it's worth it, the server load might not be reduced dramatically, while gameplay might suffer .P
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Enquillion
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Origon presents a good point... to prevent abuse, the game would have to save every time you modify your inventory by removing something that isn't destroyed. For example, give an item or money away (or drop it on the ground if this is allowed). Of course, this system or not you still need it to autosave often (else you'd have the dupe scandals of Diablo 2 and so on), so we're not relieving the server of tension here. ;P

Furthermore, are we gonna criminalize not having a completely reliable ISP? If not, the option to save manually would need to be available at any point, perhaps not in combat though. Given this, what's to prevent people from using constant trial and error?

Perhaps you'd be pacified for a minute after reloading, meaning no combat. This would be the same as a corpse run, they usually take longer than that, though. Would no combat mean you couldn't defend yourself?

Case yes, you couldn't defend yourself: What if you get jumped by something, especially a player that you couldn't avoid by outsmarting an AI?

Case yes, you couldn't defend yourself and nothing could attack you either: Free, safe travel.

Case no, you could defend yourself: Well that kinda removes the point of pacification. ^^

Case no pacification: Loss of challenge, and indifference towards death. Call me a masochist (and I like huuuge whips Wink), but if there's no real loss from death, it doesn't get feared. Outsmarting a monster becomes easier in that you can try pretty much all strategies within a small time frame, 'cause you don't have anything to lose since you can just reload.

Case reload at obelisk: Well it's just Akarra then, isn't it?

(though, if monster battles were long that would help solve this problem, or if there's some huge annoying intro every time, think Jecht ;P)

Now, there could in turn be a cooldown on reloading to prevent this, but I'm not sure if I'd enjoy that personally.

Perhaps just a rhetorical question but, why should playing a MMORPG like a single player game be encouraged?

Still have to ponder the PvP aspect of this.

Your board.
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Trance
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Origon wrote:
*sells an item for 5gc and gives the cash to Stant to hold for a minute*

*closes the game and loads the save when he still has the item*

*gets the $ back from Stant*


As soon as you exit the game, it would be saved automatically.

Instead of ripping apart this thread's philosophy on death and figuring out every possibly way to abuse the game, you should be pondering the idea of the death concept. Of course there would be measures taken to figure out every which way to prevent abuse and that, of course, would be done during development. I didn't want to go into details about every possible abuse combination as there are literally dozens of them but every single one of them can be countered/negated Smile

Enquillion wrote:
Origon presents a good point... to prevent abuse, the game would have to save every time you modify your inventory by removing something that isn't destroyed. For example, give an item or money away (or drop it on the ground if this is allowed). Of course, this system or not you still need it to autosave often (else you'd have the dupe scandals of Diablo 2 and so on), so we're not relieving the server of tension here. ;P


This is true. Hmmm.... try to think of a way around that Wink
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Origon
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Location: Akarra: Project Phoenix

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ripping apart designs allows people to see the flaws in them and therefore come up with better and more rip-proof designs. Therefore, in my own special way, im helping you tons by pointing out your flaws ;D
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Archosseus
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't really agree on manual saving. It has benefits server side but pressing 'that' save button every so so isn't fun. You could mix the concepts though to make it less capable of being abused by players.

This way is what I like the most. You enter a/the server and the server saves your character. You go levelling along etc and you happen to die. The moment you die your character is saved again.
As soon as you leave a/the server your character is saved. It's not 1 second auto-save, no use in that. This way you can't abuse it while still making the server less lag-ish because of the auto-saving.
Also the moment you close the game, it crashes or whatever it saves too. With this system, auto-save isn't required.

*edit*
In this case, both sides are happy. The server uses less bandwidth and the player doesn't have to save every once in a while.
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Origon
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in the case of a process being closed (task manager) the server should check for the latest copy of your character which was used (didnt get saved) and save that instead
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I recall, in Akarra if the client crashed or you closed by any other method then the exit commands, your character stayed active in the game even if you're not there until the server get's repeated no responses from you for a little while, aka a ping time out or something, then it logged you out automatically and at that point, you were able to log back in. Sometimes it sucked cause if you were fighting you got killed, but hey, whaddya gonna do? In these cases, you were logged out/killed so your character gets saved and you get to go back in. This can also be used in junction with the sit-down-and-wait-out-the-PK-timer people who try to leave their character in game while they go to work/school/bed. If after so many minutes of activity you auto log off, and your character is saved.

However, if it's the server that crashes or unexpectedly just shuts down or something, well, we're all screwed so you shouldn't worry about saves.

Another thing about manual saves... Any experienced RPG player will tell you to save often, even if it's not your nature. If it's not your nature to save often, then the odds are, you're either not an RPG vet, or you're just damn lucky. My guess is anyone who is totally opposed to manual saves has never played a real RPG, because seriously... Play one for a while and you'll figure out why. =]
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catslayer
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stant wrote:

<...>
Another thing about manual saves... Any experienced RPG player will tell you to save often, even if it's not your nature. If it's not your nature to save often, then the odds are, you're either not an RPG vet, or you're just damn lucky. My guess is anyone who is totally opposed to manual saves has never played a real RPG, because seriously... Play one for a while and you'll figure out why. =]


Saving is NOT a part of the ingame activity. It's only done to prevent annoying hundreds and thousands of repeats. I always stop saving, when the plotline starts being exciting. No, manual saves aren't good at all. Why not make positional auto saves? When you enter a PvP arena - your character is saved, when you enter a dungeon (may be) - too. Or(and) may be the client once in a while sends /request_save command to a server?
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Stant
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if you bothered to actually read, you'd know logging out saves you automatically. There is an auto save function, any saves above that is manual... At least that's the point trying to be made. If you can't remember to save before you try to do something stupid, well... That's just too bad.
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catslayer
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stant wrote:
Well if you bothered to actually read, you'd know logging out saves you automatically. There is an auto save function, any saves above that is manual... At least that's the point trying to be made. If you can't remember to save before you try to do something stupid, well... That's just too bad.


Damn! =(
1.I'm not posting without having read previously (I may miss something, but not the whole thing)
2.I'm trying to say that manual saves will not add to the gameplay (anyone wants to object?) and should not be used as a replace of autosaves (is that the point?) that load a server.
3.I think, saves should be auto-, but not simultaneous, instead quest/location/time-based(each 15 minutes, if no other save occurred during the time)/whatever autosaves may be used.
I'm done with it.
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