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sieges
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Sum Ting Wong
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Joined: 03 Dec 2004
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 pm    Post subject: sieges Reply with quote

ok, i had this idea. i remember bringing up sieges in the past, and somebody(don't remember who) pointed out it would suck to lose a town just cause you play in a different time zone. so i thought up this idea.

you have some system to declare your intent to siege. the defender picks a certain time.(would need to be defender cause it just seems kinda unfair that the attacker would win cause they pick the 'perfect time', whereas the defenders have already won the siege before or completely built up the town, supposing we have the player founded town system) during that time, say 30 minutes or whatever on a particular day at a particular time, both sides get their forces together, with each person having 1 life/round, and attack/defend their castle. if the attacker takes the keep or kills all defenders, then they win, whereas if the defender holds out for a certain length or kills all members of the attacking force, they win.

it probably wouldn't be a big massive scale battle, but seeing maybe 15 or so people on each side duking it out would be fun.

also, gm involvment in launching said sieges with (fair sized) armies of npc monsters would be interesting, but may be harder to implement(can't think of what to do if the town is taken by the mobs, except maybe a effort to regain the city)

anyway, i thouth this idea might be more fair for the timezone differences, just correct/suggest/comment on your opinions.
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Still around the corner they may wait,
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: sieges Reply with quote

Sum Ting Wong wrote:
you have some system to declare your intent to siege. the defender picks a certain time.


This also works in the reverse of your intent. To protect the defender from losing a valued interest, he/she sets the time of the attack. Good idea. The only problem is, the attacker is at school/work/whatever during that time and the attack is never made. Being that it's a set time, the defender doesn't even have to show up him/herself because they know the attacker cannot make it.

Let's be honest here. Anyone trying to seige a town will have been around for a while and people will know their playing habbits and times. It wouldn't be that hard to make it beyond difficult to take the town, even with an army of players behind your back. I'd rather not see towns under siege. Maybe the better option here would be PvP for a deed to a piece of property or clans fighting each other for the deed to a guildhall that will elevate their status to a guild rather then a clan.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Sum Ting Wong
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Joined: 03 Dec 2004
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was kinda thinking along the lines of blockades in www.puzzlepirates.com

the system is one side declares intent to blockade, and 24 hours after the blockade is declared, it actually begins.

also, having a round the clock type of thing would cause alliances between clans to become more important, or clans having leaders from different time zones.

also, it may work better if sieges were only allowed on weekends, so that school/work doesn't become as much of an issue.
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Cedric

Still around the corner they may wait,
A new road or a secret gate;
And though I oft have passed them by,
A day will come at last when I
Shall take the hidden paths that run
West of the Moon, East of the Sun
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Stant
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never played puzzle pirates, and one look at the web page confirmed that I never will...

Anyways, to the system, that still requires real time participation after the blockade is deployed. As per the original post, the attacker declares they want to seige. The defender declares an acknowledgement to the seige and choses a time. After that time is reached, the blockade begins, 24 hours later the attack begins. Where is the attacker? Asleep? Out with friends? School? Work? Sorry the attacker couldn't make the time so the defender wins... The attacker and defender may be in the same time zone, but the defender having been around a long time knows that the attacker can never make the time set up, so he/she goes on to win without drawing a weapon. Not exactly giving the attacker a fair chance.

Yes indeed it makes alliances more meaningful and clan leaders from all around the world, but in practice, those just don't happen. The people you surround yourself with in leadership positions are the ones who share your visions. You're friends with them for a reason. You might get lucky and meet someone on the other side of the world who thinks the way you do and upholds the clan values in mirror like fasion, but how often does that really happen? Not very. As for alliances, back in Akarra, I knew alliances didn't mean a damned thing. I'm hoping for better in Daria, but since the main player base is the same as before, I'll submit to the fact that it's just a meaningless power play. If everybody is allied or afraid to piss off the ally of their ally, no clan is going to support a seige, nor defend against one. Well, the n00b clans will be all for taking over towns since they likely aren't good enough to make one for themselves.

In order to discuss the system you're thinking of more you'll have to describe it better then just blockades. Is it turn based or real time? How long does it last? What determines who is ahead in the battle? Do you actually have to fight, or does the system randomly assign numbers to each side that are modifed due to various reasons? Describe how you see it all happening in practice on the battle field in game between yourself and me.

I run an independant trading town and you see it's a pretty nice place out here in the middle of no where, perfectly placed as the central location between 2 of the biggest NPC towns on the map. Everyone who travels between the two stop in to rest and resupply. I dominate the trade route. You decide that you want it, so your guild declares to me that you're going to seige. When I log on the game pops up a dialogue box stating that you decided to seige my town. I'm thinking out of character (hey, this guy lives in Texas, I'll set it up for 11 pm pacific time so that I know I can be on if I need to be, but this guy will likely have gone to bed being 1 am and all....

Scenario A) 11 pm comes around and I'm just hanging out in my town with some NPC guards and as I expected, you don't show. Do I just win by default or what?

Scenario B) 11 pm comes around and I'm just hanging out in my town with some NPC guards and surprisingly, you show up with a few of your guild mates. Once there, you notify the system of your seige again, and I click start battle. Do we just enguage in a battle free for all, your guild versus me and my guards, once killed you're out, no one else is allowed to join in or what? My guards follow an insanely unintelligent attack routine, so I PMed friends nearby to help me out. They show up and basically wipe the floor with you removing you from the fight. Your guild is defeated by third party interference and I keep my town. Do you get to immediately declare a seige again, or do you never get to declare it again?

Scenario C) 11 pm comes around and I'm just hanging out in my town with some NPC guards and surprisingly, you show up with a few of your guild mates. Once there, you notify the system of your seige again, and I click start battle. I PMed friends but they're a long way off and don't show up in time. Your guild mates take out my guards one by one reducing their effectiveness and forcing me to fight your two best to keep me busy. I get killed in battle and you take the town. Do I get to declare a seige in return right away or am I forced to wait 14 days?

(Turn Based System) Time here doesn't matter since it's turn based via in game pop ups. You've challenged, I've accepted and closed the town gates, you blockaded and spent your turn points on getting your equipment to the town, I prepared for battle inside by spending points creating a small army of NPC guards out of the NPC towns folk.

After the 24 hour blockade, it's your move. Think chess here where turns are concerned. Neither of us have to be there at the same time and you only get to make one move at a time, and the move depends on the piece in play. Your guild purchased a couple catapults and a ballista to aid in the initial assault. I've reinforced my towers and gates. Your guild has a power rating of 14, and my town has a power rating of 16, plus the power rating of 30 from my guild which is unknown to you since I haven't logged on as my main in a while. Your power rating determines how many points you can use each turn. Troops are 1 point, ballistas are 2, catapults are 4, ect...

(Keep in mind, I'm seeing this as an outpost town with thick wooden walls and small towers near the corners, not some Castle with huge concrete and brick walls and tall towers with murderholes and all that, nor some little fort with sticks for walls since it is a prime trading route, wealthy, and obviously a target.)

You make your attacks until you have 0 points left for your turn. After 20 minutes of no system messages back, you log off for the night.

When I log on in the morning, I find that one of my towers falls in the assault, and a stable has been destroyed... But no matter, I have 46 points to spend on calling up reinforcements, as well as manning my other towers, walls, and catapults of my own that were hidden in various workshops until I closed my gates. In my counter attack, I smash all your seige weapons leaving you with only troops to attack through a small crack in my walls where a tower had just been knocked down. Since I have somewhere I need to be at, I log off after I've completed my turn.

You just happen to be on during my counter and the system notifies you that I've completed my turn and gives you the results. In your wisdom you decide that you underestimated me and trying to attack through a small crack in the wall would be suicide. You retreat from battle.

I log back in later and I'm notified that you retreated and the seige is over. I open the gates of my town and repair the walls, fallen tower, and rebuild the stable. Slightly angered by the attack, I change guild diplomacy to hostile to you and now you get beaten down every time we meet for a while until I get bored with you and change it back to neutral.

*****************************************************

Long story short, if you want to highlight a system as a request on how it should work, tell us how it works through a detailed description of how you see it working in the game. I doubt very many of us have played puzzle pirates, I doubt any of us are going to create an account just to check out how it works. Just take what you know and describe how you see it unfolding in the game as real time action, turn based, whatever, like how I did in my examples above. The more desriptive you get, the better it is for everyone to understand what's going on and to guage how much they like the idea.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Sum Ting Wong
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Joined: 03 Dec 2004
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm

taking a town should be an investment, so you'd probably want to alter your game schedules a bit to make sure you can.

the sieges should probably only be allowed on saturdays, since that seems to be the most open day of the week(no church, school, work, stuff like that), with a couple of main 'siege times', that differ for the different timezones involved, so that only guilds active during a certain time can attack/be attacked by others from that time zone
when the attack commences, you have

a. the group of attacking players on one side of the field, with some kind of mount type equipable siege engine that does damage to special wall sections) and a group of defenders behind the wall and most likely some npc's to make sure no town ever goes down without a fight. the opposing team launches the attack, with the goal being to capture and hold a certain area(king of the hill) for a certain amount of time or kill off all of the opposing team, who would each get one life. have 3 rounds, with whoever wins 2 of those 3 rounds becoming the winner.

b. you have a wall that cannot be breached, and then several openings. the walls would block your view of all on the other side, similar to trees and such during akarra. you and the opposing team just duke it out, winner take all. no npc's would be allowed in this version.

my other idea is that the dev's create a set list of all the towns in random order. each weekend (or couple of weekeds) at a specific time, they open one up for attack. the defenders would need to be told about what period of time their city may be attacked, or pick a 12 hour "black list" of times that they cannot be attacked because they would be sleeping. the attacking team would donate a war chest reflecting the prosperity of the town, i.e. the nice merchant center you're defending would cost lots to attack to begin with, whereas the town that will give you no real advantage would be dirt cheap. since the time the town will be siege-able would be known, you wouldn't have the excuse of 'oh, i was sleeping when they attacked'. also, if you lost, it wouldn't be a matter of coming back next weekend to retry because of the randomized list. you could think of your weaknesses/revise your strategies until the town comes back up on the randomized list.

if you lose, you could offer to pay a large sum of tribute to the winners and see if they accept it, or they could decide not to and just take your city.

thats all i can really think up for the moment, but i'll try harder to figure out a more viable way.

btw I like your idea for turn based systems, but it would be possible to stall indefinately just to keep from losing, unless each hour after the first say 24hrs or so of inactivity costs you points.
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Cedric

Still around the corner they may wait,
A new road or a secret gate;
And though I oft have passed them by,
A day will come at last when I
Shall take the hidden paths that run
West of the Moon, East of the Sun
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Stant
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I thought of that after I posted and since it was late I decided to go to bed rather then fix it. =D Anyways, the counter to prevent a stall would be you must make an action 24 hours after your opponent, or else your turn is skipped. Another thing is that you don't have to use up all your points on your turn, but you should since you lose them at the end. But for some people who might have very large/highly active guilds behind them and they have an insane amount of points to use and they know there's just no way you can defeat the standard NPC defence, they could just skip their turn or let the game skip it for them and sit back to see what happens.

Also I sould restate that the gates are closed during the seige, which makes it the defenders best interest to go quickly so outside traffic can return to their town. All PCs in the town would of course be allowed to leave during the initial blockade... All those willing to stay add their power to the towns defense...
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Enquillion
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that could somehow counter the offline-time issue (sleep, party, jail, you name it) would be to have each offline defending guild member replaced by a NPC of the same level and class. Perhaps it would just be the AI playing the exactly same character, and whoever's in charge can give the AI some simple orders, like stay at range, nuke for your life, run back at x% HP, etc.

In some cases it would be an advantage to do this, 'cause the AI is 100% disciplined, which is more than you can say about some players. ^^

'course, maybe they'd have to sign out at the given location, or whoever's in charge of the defense could summon them (for a fee), but it'd certainly help a bit. Aside from mass recruiting prior to the defense of a town, but just make it so that once a town is declared to be besieged at date x, anyone joining between then and point x can't participate in NPC-form.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmmm balance of power.
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Chybi
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I believe the easiest method would be Stant initial method of Turn based, with a set number of points that each opposing army has.

The attackers point ratio should be counted on the clan power, number of siege engines and number of allies near.Allies near would have to stay in a certain limit of the town, and have been there for 24 hours(this way people can't just go lvl and log off in the siege area to give their clan points) Points could only be spent by a leader of the clan(so even if someone from an allied clan show s up alone, if he isn't a leader, he would be worthless.)

Example, The Noobie CLan is attacking a town, they have 2 misc siege engines Those give them 30 points per day total. The have a guild power of 20 so + 20 points per day. Out of the 50 members their clan has, 30 came to fight, so +15 points. The noobie clan gets a total of 65 points per day.

The Hoobie Clan is allied to the Noobie clan, and they decide to show up also. They decided to bring 1 siege engine so they gain 15 points. They have a guild power of 15 so +15 points and and they brought 10 members for a total of 5 points. The Hoobie clan gets a total of 35 points per day.

This has the allied faction with a total of 100 points.

As for the town defence, the number of shops, Clan power and the number of people should have an effect. Also, for the declaring blockade, it should last for some day so that clans have time to contact their allies and convince them to show up. As with the defenders, only the leaders can use the points per day.

In Stantville there are 5 shops, giving him a total of 25 points. His clan has a power rating of 35 giving him 35 points and he has 20 men who showed up to defend to town giving him 10 points. for a grand total of 70 points

This town has no allies helping them defend from the inside. so no additional aid.

Three days later the Fierce Warriors show up to aid in the defense of Stantville. A clan helping in the defence of a town, only gives a bonus for the clan power and for the number of men present.

The fierce warrios have a clan power of 10, giving them 10 points but they brought along 50 men giving them 25 points. for a total of 35 points.

SO for the first 3 day, the defenders ahve a defense power of 70, but they raise to 105 for the days following.

SImple restrictions :
If a clan is allied with both of the opposing factions, he cannot partake in the war until he has changed his loyalties.

Every clan that wishes to help another clan in the defence or assault of a town, must have leaders to use their points and they must have been on the battlefield for at least 24 hours.

If a clan is in multiple combat situations. (Attacking a town while being attacked in one they control) His clan power is divided among the number of combats the clan partakes in. And a leader must be present on each battlefield to lead the assault.

A clan can decide at any time to yield to the opposing force, causing them to loose and they must respect a set laws for having lost.(I think a list predetermined where the factions can choose one point from the list.) For example, if the defenders win the siege similar conditions could be: No attacking us for a month. No coming to this town for a month and etc. (there must be a way for the game to control these arrangements) If the attacker wins There could be similar conditions which must also be enforced by the game rather than the players. Should one of the clans that originally started the conflict, decide to yield, it's allies are forced to yield. BOth clans can also decide to end the war with the Status Quo (Nothing happens, things stay the same).


And now on to the actual spending of points. I think the best way would be predefined actions with a certain point cost and chance of success.

Defender possible actions:

Raid Siege engines of the opposing forces 50 points 25% chance of sucess (chances of sucess increase with every attempt)
If this attack is sucessful, the enemy looses a siege engine and looses the point bonus it gives

Raid the opposing forces 25 points 30% chance of sucess (chances of sucess increase with every attempt) 10% chance of loosing troops (increases with every attempt)
If this attack is sucessful, the oppenent looses a set number of clan members which cannot come back into this combat. They loose the bonus those clan members give (I calculated it at .5 points per member so 2 loses means -1 point) WHile this could be an effect tactic, it is possible to loose troops when attacking in this fashion

Raid the oponents Leadership tents 100 points 10% chance of sucess(chances of sucess increase with every attempt) 25% chance of loosing troops
If this attack is sucessful the opposing leader dies, if he was the only leader, that force is Considered out of action until they get a new leader. the leader killed this way cannot come back into combat.If the main attacking forces leader is killed, and no other leader is present, they loose the battle and must submit to the terms of the opposing faction. ALthough this action can end the battle there is a great risk of loosing troops


(only availabe to allies not the main force in the conflict)
Give points X points 100% chance of sucess This command permits and ally of the main troop to give a number of points to their allies.(In the example I gave, Stantville only gets 100 points per day, so if they ever want to try and use the Raid oponents Leadership tents they must receive points from their ally, and since they are the main troop in this conflict, they cannot give points to their ally and can only receive them)

Attacker Possible Actions:

Attack shops with Siege Engines 50 points 25% chance of sucess (chances of sucess increase with every attempt) 5% chance of siege engine breaking down
If this attack is sucessful, the enemy looses a Shop and looses the point bonus it gives

Raid the opposing forces 25 points 30% chance of sucess (chances of sucess increase with every attempt) 10% chance of loosing troops (increases with every attempt)
See description in Defenders actions

Raid the oponents Leadership tents 100 points 10% chance of sucess(chances of sucess increase with every attempt) 25% chance of loosing troops See description in Defenders actions

(only availabe to allies not the main force in the conflict)
Give points X points 100% chance of sucess See Description in Defenders actions.

When a leader involved in the combat would log on, he would get a report of the previous days action. This report would involve, Number of loses on both sides, number of siege engines/shops left on both sides. Actions taken by his allies.

The leader then takes his actions for the day.

Anyways, I hope this is understandable and that you will have had the patience to read through. If there is anything that needs clearing up, I will try to do it.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn Chybi, did you attend my school on posting or what? ;P Anyways, good ideas all around. Surpried Kal even bothered to make a worthless post in here. =D As for end game results, I'd like to see it as town ownership switching guilds. Towns and shops would be revenue generators, which could pay for you guildhall quite nicely, especially if the town was built around it. I agree to the no counter seige until after x days, but as for the no visiting, that's kinda counter to what the towns purpose is for. I'd rather not see that happening. Especially if it's an early on town that's vital to a trade route.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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