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Good and Evil
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Manifold
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Location: Treading my dreams, UK

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stant wrote:
Crime isn't necessarily evil.

Economic crimes such as black markets, money laundering, gambling in some places, stealing, ect. aren't violations of mortality. The only thing that gets hurt is someone's bank account.

Well, how far do you follow the effect of that lack of money? If immediate, then I suppose.. no. But, I'm sure you can think of situations where it could kill someone. In fact, the effect of any crime can be like this.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Origon wrote:
There are always exceptions, even in life, of people that do not follow what their religion/race teaches them and I'm sure we all have seen this. The system has to be very general to allow for such variations.


You seem to be glossing over the point. If each race had a taylored deed system for each god (meaning if there are 4 races and 2 gods, 8 separate deed systems), them everything is covered acceptably. If things were so general as to what you're trying to get at, then there's no such way anything could be considered good or evil. At character creation, you pick the race and religion (Or lack there of, hopefully) and you can choose to follow it or not. If the game is going to descriminate good vs. evil, there has to be a way for it to know, who is following the rules, and who isn't. Trying to generalize things is how you handle the situation if you want to apply it broadly... A concept I'm trying to move away from.

Manifold wrote:
Well, how far do you follow the effect of that lack of money? If immediate, then I suppose.. no. But, I'm sure you can think of situations where it could kill someone. In fact, the effect of any crime can be like this.

This travels back to the story of what ifs. As with anything, if you go back far enough you can totally affect something else. If I didn't buy that pack of gum, then I wouldn't have had a piece to give to the kid on the street corner, and he wouldn't have stayed in place blowing bubbles rather then walking off and being ran over by a guy who lost control of his car, and his brother wouldn't have shot the guy who killed his brother, and he wouldn't have got the gun from a friend who just happen to have an extra one, and that friend wouldn't have had the gun if his buddy didn't give him one that was stolen out of a police storehouse, and that gun wouldn't have been there if I hadn't arrested the gun smuggler and put it there in the first place, and that gun smuggler wouldn't be doing that if he already had all the money he needed to live the life the way he wanted to, and he wouldn't have the need for such money if life didn't require so much of it, and life wouldn't require so much of it if the concept of trading for money was never invented, and that concept would have never been invented if people always had things of value to trade for, and things wouldn't have value if everybody was always given the things they needed to live happily on... But because there are always those that are unhappy, they will always give values to things, things with value will be traded for other things with values, values are not always the same so other things with value are created to 'hold' values so you don't always have to carry goats and spices and carpets around with you, people with more valuable things will live better lives to much adoration by those who can't, which makes them do what they have to do to try to live as well as the others like smuggling guns for money, which gives me a job in stopping them, which puts all their guns in one place and makes it a target for thieves who also want better lives, who take those guns and sell them away to people so that they can spend money on better things, which find their way into the hands of hurt angry people who do stupid things because of a loved one being killed, because of a car that was driven so much buy a guy who worked 2 jobs and transported his family everywhere wore out just enough that something broke causing him to lose control of it and kill a kid that wouldn't have been walking down the street if he was busy blowing bubbles on the corner with the piece of gum that I gave him after walking outside the liquer store, gum that I bought with money that I was paid to stop people from doing stupid things...

I can make several branches in that story and make several branches from each of those and several more from each of those... Everything is connected in some way if you go back in the chain far enough. If money was never created, would there still be crime? Of course there would. Is money a reason for crime? Of course it is. Does money get people killed? Sure it does... But so do hundereds of other things.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Origon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too true, but theres always the problem that a character picks a race/religion NOT because of their views on good/evil but because of the race / religion / God themselves, and dont necesarilly support those beliefs.........What he's doing is considered only by the race/religion, not by him. Maybe have a certain table which you fill in. such as 'pk: good - bad. loot: good - bad." and you fill that in through the GUI and that way the people can be properly judged good/bad ACCORDING to YOUR beliefs (yea, i know this'll be a pain the ass to track, get to work wookie)
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hum.... Isn't that basically what you're picking when you go for race/religion options as it is anyway? Which supports PK and theivery, which is against it? Generally you have an idea of what you want going in and you choose according to what gets you closer to that ideal... Yes some people pick race/religion on what sounds cool, but then again, depending on how many religions there are, they could all be covered. The D&D game that I'm a part of has 145 different playable races, 11 more that are extinct but important to note throughout history, 30 gods, and 60 demigods... It's impossible to not find something that suits you. But then again, this is supposed to be an RPG, you're supposed to play a role similar or different then yourself... Not exactly yourself.

Anyways, depending on the race descriptions and the religion descriptions, they may all sound really good, or they may all sound like crap... They may describe everyting that they're about, they may say nothing at all except how popular they are in the world and you have to do questing to figure it all out... Being able to pick and choose every little detail would be nice for individuality, but really... We're not talking personal beliefs here... We're talking societal beliefs. In real life, killing is wrong because society says it is. No matter what your personal belief on the situation is, it's not you who decides, it's society that does.

Now you're being too specific, rather then overly general about it. OK, let me define some levels here.
Level 1: Top level, every rule here applies to every race and religion.
Level 2A: Every rule here applies to everything belonging to this religion.
Level 2B: Every rule made here applies to everything belonging to this race.
Level 2C: Every rule here applies to everything in this class.
Level 3: Every rule here applies to the individual only.

I get the feeling you went from 1 to 3 skipping straight over everything in 2. Many games only work with level 1 because it's the easiest. Just code it, it applies to everyone, 'nuff said. I'm speaking of the areas of level 2. Make some basic rules of conduct for the race, make some basic rules of conduct for the religion, and make some basic rules of conduct for the class one is currently in. Where conflicts of conduct appear, use the add and divide method. Religion says killing is wrong, class says killing is wrong, race says killing is a must... the end result is a tendancy to favor life over killing. Race is indifferent to stealing, class is all for stealing, religion is indifferent for stealing... End result, stealing is ok. You can choose carefully and get the results you want, or you can choose what you like and let your society tell you how you're doing.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Chybi
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stant, isn't that system missing one level? Region. Many places have different laws on different things, for example, you in the US have the Death penalty, we in Canada don't, I'm not saying that one is better than the other, just that different places generally mean different laws.
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Origon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stant, according to that little 3 step thing there, i WAS talking about #3, because as I recall, a dev said theres 3 or 4 races and 2 or 3 religions (or at least thats what i THINK they said). And even if its that, or i missed 2, i don't think every possible option can be covered. And with the individual settings, they can be changed as your own views change
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chybi wrote:
you in the US have the Death penalty


Actually, that is not entirely correct. The death penalty that you're likely referring to is a State decided thing. Some states have it, some states don't. The federal government has to have it, but only because of the few states that do have it. And out of all the states that do have the death penalty and the federal government, only Texas really ever uses it. In my entire life (26.5 years), I can only recall ever hearing California use it twice... I can't recall any other state (except Texas) or the federal government using it... Maybe Hawaii did once... I really don't know why we have it, everybody on death row ends up just serving life in prison anyway... Long story short. Stay away from Texas... They love their barbecues.

*Edit*
Forgot the second half of my post. ;P

Origon, I figured you were referring to the third step... Consider it this way, do your views and opinions dictate what society thinks is right and wrong? My guess is, unless for some reason Canada shifted to a monarchy over night and you became king, odds are, your personal views don't mean shit to society. The point is any rules made would have to be accepted by that part of society, creating personal rules would be extremely pointless since they only effect you. If everybody makes the rules for themselves, then no one would be doing anything wrong.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Origon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True....true, but even though my beliefs dont influence society's opinion of good and bad, they influence my views on the subject. I for one, am pro unlimited PK. So if i see a person the game labels as evil, I better see what he's labelled for then, because to me, he is NOT evil...

Stant wrote:
If everybody makes the rules for themselves, then no one would be doing anything wrong.


And don't start saying how no one would see any action as evil then. Some people are against-PK for instance, some are pro-looting, some are against it, there would be a lot of different variations of the entire good/evil belief system. I'd personally see only looting as evil.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

=\ I can tell you're reading the whole thing wrong...

This isn't about your own personal views, this is about societies views... Stop thinking about yourself and be a tad bit more broad in thinking without getting too broad that you want it to cover everyone. OK, let me put this in game terms again...

Uth likes PK, Ath is against it, or you could be neither religion and indifferent to PK. 2 gods, 2 religions, 3 points of views on death.

Clerics save lives whenever possible, bandits could care less, liches take away life whenever possible. 3 classes, 3 different views on death.

Angels want everything to live, humans don't care, Najo see death as a must. 3 races, 3 different views.

Let me start off by pointing out both extremes and the mid point. If you're an Angel Cleric following the ways of Ath... In the society you belong to, PK is a very serious and grievous error to make, and should be avoided at all costs. If you're a Najo Lich following the ways of Uth, PK sprees are just a way of life for you and the part of society you belong to. If you're a Human Bandit who follows no religion, your society circles could care less about PK. Sometimes you do it, sometimes you don't. That's just how things are.

Let me make a chart to show you all the possibilities of how you can pick race, class, and religion to get the beliefs you want to follow.

Race/Class/Religion - RCR Views on PK (yes, no, don't care) - How your society feels about PK.

Angel Cleric of Ath - No No No - Never PK it's totally wrong.
Angel Bandit of Ath - No DC No - Every effort to avoid PK should be persued.
Angel Lich of Ath - No Yes No - You shouldn't PK.
Human Cleric of Ath - DC No No - Every effort to avoid PK should be persued.
Human Bandit of Ath - DC DC No - Try not to PK.
Human Lich of Ath - DC Yes No - If it happens, it happens.
Najo Cleric of Ath - Yes No No - You shouldn't PK.
Najo Bandit of Ath - Yes DC No - If it happens, it happens.
Najo Lich of Ath - Yes Yes No - You should PK.

Angel Cleric NR - No No DC - Every effort to avoid PK should be persued.
Angel Bandit NR - No DC DC - Try not to PK.
Angel Lich NR - No Yes DC - If it happens, it happens.
Human Cleric NR - DC No DC - Try not to PK.
Human Bandit NR - DC DC DC - If it happens, it happens.
Human Lich NR - DC Yes DC - You should PK.
Najo Cleric NR - Yes No DC - If it happens, it happens.
Najo Bandit NR - Yes DC DC - You should PK.
Najo Lich NR - Yes Yes DC - Every effort to PK should be attempted.

Angel Cleric of Uth - No No Yes - Try not to PK.
Angel Bandit of Uth - No DC Yes - If it happens, it happens.
Angel Lich of Uth - No Yes Yes - You should PK.
Human Cleric of Uth - DC No Yes - If it happens, it happens.
Human Bandit of Uth - DC DC Yes - You should PK.
Human Lich of Uth - DC Yes Yes - Every effort to Pk should be attempted.
Najo Cleric of Uth - Yes No Yes - You should PK.
Najo Bandit of Uth - Yes DC Yes - Every effort to PK should be attempted.
Najo Lich of Uth - Yes Yes Yes - PK is Mandatory to continue your existence.

So as you can see, you can use your head and create a character that plays how you'd like to play, you can just be mindful of how they play and just choose your own, or you can blindly pick and have at it.

What does all of this mean? It means if you're an Angel Cleric of Ath and you go on a PK spree, your society deems you as an evil, evil, bastard. It also means that if you're a Najo Lich of Uth and you never PK, your society also calls you evil traitor. If you're a Human Bandit with no religion and you PK every once in a while, your society doesn't really care and could call you good or evil depending on how recent your last PK was... However if you never PK, you're always called good, and if you PK every time you meet someone you're labeled evil. An Angel Cleric of Ath who never PK's is a good person, and a Najo Lich of Uth who's end result of every step in the game is someone getting PKed, you are also considered to be good.

As a final note, I could add region to this as well like Chybi suggested, but that's adding another option to things really making this chart a whole lot bigger and not really adding any more value to it. I believe that when dealing with multiple sentient beings, region only is important for territorial reasons. You can't really base it on earth because there really is only one sentient being here. If you assume that color of skin in humans makes a different race as in a D&D game, then you can see how the world divided up by color. Region defines nothing except which race populates the area more. It has no effect on the views of murder. Again, humans on earth divided up into nationalities based on where they originate, in games such as this where there are multiple sentient beings, Humans all band together as one race, no matter what color, creed, or place of birth and separate from the other sentient beings. Using Chybi's example a bit more, If you assume the US was full of Najo, and Canada was full of Angels, then each race would dictate the feelings on killing. Should the Angels all leave and the Najo all decide to move in, does the region now tell the Najo that they can no longer kill? No, the Najo now tells the region that things can be killed here. Therefor, region is valueless in such a discussion.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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HHero
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BINGO !!!!!


thats what i was talking about maybe having people to actualy role play their character and lets not see some Clerc Killing innocent unless he is force 2
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