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Good and Evil
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HHero
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:41 am    Post subject: Good and Evil Reply with quote

mmm maybe having a good and evil system that way we could mmm have a world event for exemple Makaba's minion are trying to destroy Minastie's city soo all the good could go help and that way we have a bit more mmm rpg
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Stant
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been stated in other posts, good and evil is purely subjective and based on your own opinion of the situation. http://www.dawnofdaria.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=448 That means that what you think is evil, may be acceptable to me, and vice versa. So which is it? Good or evil? That depends on which of us someone asks, as well as their own personal outlook on things. There are lots of good comments in that thread to consider when thinking more on this.

To quote thewreck:
"if we wanna define good and evil we would get into some crazy meta-philosophical debate which we would most likely get stuck in.

spiders mommas eat spider fathers, we might consider them evil, but the spiders probably dont.

anyway, i cant really explain what my feeling are on this, thus this will feel fuzzy.

but.. why is killing wrong?. and why should we value life?"

=]
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Origon
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Joined: 01 Dec 2004
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Location: Akarra: Project Phoenix

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, besides from being subjective based on the person's point of view (or the spiders in that case) good and evil are just relative to one another. Good may not be good in a different situation

Killing someone <-- most people call it evil ?

But it seems very 'good' when compared to the Holocaust. It can also be seen as very 'evil' when compared to sending someone a Christmas present. This is all rather subjective and can't really be defined
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Mythalinear
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless there is an 'ultimate good standard' to which we are responsible, then good and evil are simply subjective. This standard being set by God, of course. Maybe the designers could instill an 'ultimate good standard' of there own to define between good and evil. There are many many variables though, some of which would be really hard to catch. (Example: kill stealing = evil but how does the computer pick up on kill stealing over helping a player in distress. Various other examples would have been written here if I had more time and patience) I can see this as being a total head ache for the dev team so I'm not even going to try pushing for it.
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Origon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who says there is a single God. and if there is not, then there has to be more then 1 "ultimate good" and "ultimate evil" depending on the religion, but just realize that these standards will not be upheld by every person, you're thinking of a perfect world. There can be several states of being religious, such as a full believer, partial, or none and in it for some other reason. For example, my grandparents are full believers, thinking nearly everything including technology is evil and sin (-.-;Wink. My parents are partial believers, and I'm just in it cause i was christened at birth (-.-;; again). Just in it till i got my own choice, but yea, im a non-believer for those of you that care. For those of you that dont, ignore that side note Razz But back to topic, as I said, there can't really be an accurate system of good and evil, at best, there can be a 'generally accepted by most players because it was uninamously decided upon' system which would still not work in a lot of places. As Stant has pointed out:
Stant wrote:
but.. why is killing wrong?. and why should we value life?

I believe that that stands true. No one should be allowed to tell anyone what good and evil are, those are totally subjective values based on your personal beliefs, morals and whatever else may affect your choices. The most someone should be able to tell you that 'society frowns upon this sort of thing' such as KSing in this game. For example, I am personally PRO unlimited pking with no restrictions or penalties, but I know that that system will cause a lot of problems with some of the current players, so I support the choice made by the developers (Give us a free-PK shart
Very Happy ). But going back to my point, there is no right and wrong, good or evil that will satisfy every single person. The closest we will ever get to is construct a belief system for the NPCs instead of the player database and just fine tune that until it works...
[/rant]
Rant Over, nothing to see here folks, head on home...
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HHero
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oooo

u guyz just crash my bubble


no but i mean if any1 here played Fable u get to do quest that are good or evil so i was just wondering like that that way if u feel like killing people well u dont get penality like in WiA
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Origon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats the thing, good and evil are determined by the PERSON, they cannot, or at the very least SHOULD NOT be determined for you by someone else. I feel a game like Gothic makes the best use of that. Your actions determine how everyone sees you (i know thats still a system determined by the game, the morals of good and bad arent yours) but at least you get a CHOICE there, not something forced onto you because its 'good' cause so and so said so
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Stant
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HHero, you must have completely misunderstood the conversation thus far. What is good, and what is bad, is based purely on opinion. Hard coding good and evil things such as like in Fable would be forcing us all to adhere to those values of right and wrong. Now, someone like me, seeking a prefession as an executioner, views death as just part of the cycle of life, a necessity if you will. Someone else would view killing as something that is totally evil and should never be done, and spit on me every chance they get because I make a living off of killing people. Who is right and doing good? Me, for ridding the population of those that have shown no ability to get along with civilization, or the one who spits on me because they see every life being precious? Hard coding killing as an evil act, automatically places me in the evil category, even if by getting rid of troublemakers, helps out the entire community for the better.

The reason why PK has penalties associated with it, isn't to punish you for being evil, it's simply to discourage it so we don't end up with a giant PK community that only cares about camping near towns and killing off anyone whom walks by. Killing sometimes is just necessary. The trick is balancing out the penalties for PKing so that there are enough of them to discourage it, yet not too many so that when push comes to shove, you're still afraid to do it. Try not to equate PKing in good and evil terms, rather, try to think of it as I shouldn't, but I could if I needed to. Don't think of the penalties as being a punishment for an evil act, but rather, as a temporary penalty that discourages it so that it's not something anyone can do any time they feel like. Seriously, would you like to create a character and be stuck inside a town because every time you walked out, you got PK'd? That would suck. There is a thread discussing all of that as well, but I'm to lazy to look it up at the moment. =]
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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HHero
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah ur right

but still if u ever playe The 4th is comming

then u might get my point of view

and thx for participating in my topic now i get to post more ^^
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Stant
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I haven't played Fable or the 4th is Coming... If you wanna explain how it worked in greater detail, you can do so. Sometimes explaining how something works gives the devs an idea on what they want to add. Things like a code of conduct for each religion introduced into the game for each race, and basing a good/evil meter on how well you follow that code of conduct. Thus something like a race that thrives on killing humans for taking away their homeland, one that kills hundereds of human players and NPC's would be considered a great hero to their race, and one that never kills a human and trades with them instead would be called a traitor and sent to prison... But then again, they'd have to know how the current ones worked in practice so that they'd know what to change to make it better. Or maybe it would just be too complicated and they'd blow off this thread. At any rate, Kal usually reads everything in the inventors forum, so explain away and maybe you'll get some good feedback on future possibilities.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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