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Community Discussion: Tradeskills - CD I
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Kalorian
Developer


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 300
Location: Uiejonbou, South Korea

PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:41 pm    Post subject: Community Discussion: Tradeskills - CD I Reply with quote

Hello all,

First of all I would like to introduce myself. I have just been accepted (tonight) as a Developer on this project. I will be assisting in various areas.. Music.. Community Management.. World/Economic Design etc.. My specialities for this project are World Design and Economic's Design. I have been in and out of the "Independent Game Development" industry for 5 years now. I've been in so many failed projects its not funny but I believe I've finally found a project that will succeed. I'm currently in the process of finishing my Information Systems Degree with an emphasis on Application Design & Project Management. This is one of my first 2d Projects in a while so its an adjustment, but looks to be fun!

I have talked with thewreck, and we are now planning to do quite a few community discussions with certain design aspects of the game. Some of the best ideas for game design come from the community as well as some of the worse Wink . I'm hoping to read some very good ideas on this topic of Tradeskills and Crafting.

Anyways, I look forward to meeting many of you and having some good discussions with you folks. Without further delay.. the discussion.

I have been a big fan of tradeskills & crafting ever since I started playing MMOG's. So this is a big deal for me. Basically what I want to discuss is how do you perceive tradeskills.. especially from a 2d perspective its a little different and sometimes more restricting.

I am starting with an initial grouping of questions.. This will be one of MANY tradeskills/crafting discussions. This one is going to be a little vague but plenty of room for discussion. Please no, 'thats stupid' comments or 'that sucks' If your gonna say that to someone elses idea please explain yourself, that way a discussion forms.. instead of an arguement. If the community can't handle these discussions they will not continue.

-------------------

Note: Tradeskills - A Skill that a player would use to craft/produce an item to use or sell to another PC or NPC.

1. What do you see as the pros and cons of adding in a Tradeskill system to Dawn of Daria?

2. What do you see as the pros and cons of making a merchant type of character solely for tradeskills?

3. Whats your input on allowing Fighters & other types of players to be able to craft? Good? Bad?

4. What tradeskills do you think are 'best' for Dawn of Daria?

5. What tradeskills would you 'like' to see in Dawn of Daria?

-------------------

I look forward to reading your responses. I have plenty more questions to ask so don't worry. I just don't want to put 50 on there and say have it at. I would have so many 'deer caught in headlight' looks it wouldn't be funny. (Thats an American expression for intimadated or scared for those of you that don't know :p)

Once again I emphasize on discussing in these posts, not argueing with each other. If there is a conflict of interest remain calm.. this is only a game. No one is questioning your manhood, so chill out and just discuss Smile . (for those ladies that took offense my appologies.. Womanhood doesn't have the same ring to it Smile )

Enjoy.

Kalorian
Designer & Community Manager
Dawn of Daria
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Origon
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Joined: 01 Dec 2004
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Location: Akarra: Project Phoenix

PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are my opinions on the subject

1) The pros would definitely be to liven up the boredom of your typical hack&slash games and so items can be made instead of the shops selling everything. It's a fun way to waste time if you got friends with ya, but also tends to be boring as hell if its mandatory for anything, or if people are forced to learn / practise / use it for any reason. Just don't want it to get too repetitive.

2) A merchant only class ? personally im against it because i for one am going for a warrior-type class and i play a LOT. I dont want to have to constantly change characters, or have my weaker merchant character constantly killed off by random people. For me it'd be much better to say fish on my normal warrior, or hunt with my mage or whatever.

3) crafting for fighters ? i say only blacksmithing, mining and such. Leave the fine crafts such as enchanting, glass-blowing - W/E to the wizard class or people who raise intelligence a lot.

4) Best would probably be...blacksmithing since its the most useful in terms of making stuff you can actually use instead of make - npc, make - npc

5) Well, i can't really say since i dont know how the maps are, but if they're anything simular to WiA, i'd say farming, mining, blacksmithing, fishing, hunting and enchanting would be some of the top ones id love to see implemented.
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Hexedian
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Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many pros and cons of adding tradeskills in a game like Dawn of Daria. The pros are many, and I believe others will state them better than I would. I would like to point a few cons that might not be obvious at first. That does not mean I would not want tradeskills, quite the contrary.

First is the size of the community. While it would be nice to have some items that only players can craft, with a community of a few hundreds steady players, it might not be the best approach (not if it is applied for a lot of items anyway). Some tradeskill classes would simply require more time to get to than most people would be ready to invest (But then you never know, seeing how Akarra developped in the past ^^;)

Second is the omnipresence of boringness of tradeskills. Without the tactical requirement of fighting, there is not much to keep a player entertained - unless there are others to talk to, of course.

Third and last is the flooding of the market with crafted items. Merchants with limited money would make crafting less valuable, while unlimited resources would mean 24/7 macroing a'plenty. One way of avoiding this is to make items longer to craft, but that is not what most people might want.


I believe Dragon Empire had a good approach to crafting - the way I understood it, anyway. Each account was allowed to have one crafter, who would be crafting at all time (When the character wasn't being used). You would tell the game at how much you wanted to buy items (With dynamic prices) and at how much you wanted to sell. Of course, DE had a monthly cost, so multiple accounts were not a big problem...


I know I didn't give much in term of suggestions, but I hope those few almost pointless comments will spawn a few cray ideas in these Darian heads.

Hexedian
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Nazzy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. What do you see as the pros and cons of adding in a Tradeskill system to Dawn of Daria?


Personaly i see the pro of tradeskills being that there is something in the game other than hack and slash so that you are able to do other things without being restricted. Also I see this as a way that some body can become a vell valued member of the community because they can offer low prices for good as such. Also tradeskilling also adds abit more exploration to the game as (hope i undersood this correctly Very Happy) recipies can be found and added so that the fun is never lost and people are inspired to try new things to see if it leads to something new.

Now the Cons to this are that, things like this can become protected and thus the fun taken out of them, for example person finds something really good, and doesnt give hints of how to do it and doesnt ofer to help anyone in the right direction so that they can have the same fun. And also i will include minning here, places like mines for ore can become very crowded and thus extortinate prices are used so that they make a huge profit which i see as an unfair advantage. (I hope this makes sense). and also things like this can lead to selling money over specialy selected sites and such so that people can again gain an unfair advantage over other players however i dont think that is too much of a problem in a game this size.


Quote:
2. What do you see as the pros and cons of making a merchant type of character solely for tradeskills?



Right the way that i have interpreted this is that you basicaly create a character soley for the purpose of making things and making a profit. So,

Pros, Adds another side to the game more of a real life situation of having to create an income to survie. So on the whole i dont actually like this idea this will be shown in the cons Very Happy

Cons
Right this could cause the game to become very repetitive for people so that other people can use there benifites. Also again i think abuse would play a major part in this for example:
Group discover something
Decided outragious selling price
Dont tell any one else
People must pay to get that item.
So in my opinion i think that it would be much better if any character could use any skill they have learnt as it would be much easier to think 'I fancy trying to make something' and just gathering the items instead of having to log into a diff character.

Quote:
3. Whats your input on allowing Fighters & other types of players to be able to craft? Good? Bad?


Good because this encourages player interactment and players can grow out of this as it is another source of finance since it can be very difficult to get money form monsters and also it means ease in the most part and again making the game fun because what is better than making your own weapon, finding all the bits in caves around the world each weapon has its own story instead of 'OMG it cost me 6 [Insert currency] from [ insert shop]


Quote:
4. What tradeskills do you think are 'best' for Dawn of Daria?


I would say, alot of skills that would be necisary such as Fishing, Farming, blacksmithing, Leatherwork, Weaving, and so on i cant actually think of an entire list but i think that the whole skill thing from FFXi would be appropriate because of the time period being roughly the same. And that all of these skills would have been needed in this time period to survive.

Quote:

5. What tradeskills would you 'like' to see in Dawn of Daria?


I see this as basicaly the same question as above but personaly i would like to see, Blacksmithing, Fishing, Leatherwork and Farming/Gardening in there.

Now i hope my input has been of some help to you, I look forward to an ongoing discussion Very Happy
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maestro
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Pros
- Adds to the variety of choices a character can make.
- Could lead to a more player-regulated market.
- Different people having different tradeskills would mean that people would be more dependent on eachother. For example, if I'm an archer and someone with me can make me arrows, then I wouldn't let him out of my sight that easy. And I could probably do something for him/her in return.

Cons:
- Hard to make the economy system balanced (?)
- Too much focus on making money through crafting etc.
- There will be many alternative characters. (Don't know if this really is a problem.)

2.
Pros:
- A player-regulated market.

Cons:
- Would be rather dull to just keep selling and buying stuff. But then again, we did wander in the gate for several hours doing the same thing over and over again, so...
- Experience, how would such a character gain experience? And how will it be balanced compared to the experience fighters get through killing things?

3.
I think it would be good to some extent. An archer for example, might have the knowledge of making arrows, that would be quite expected so to say. But maybe a fighter shouldn't be able to put something more advanced together just by combining two items just guessing.

I think I leave 4 and 5 to someone more creative than me. Very Happy But arrowmaking would be a suggestion, but then again, I don't know if archers/rangers will play a part in Daria.
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Hexedian
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One con Nazzy pointed out is one thing I didn't like of the small crafting system of WiA... There were a lot of items that could be used in crafting, and no way of knowing which ones would do anything, leading to exponentially growing number of combinations to try.

I believe getting access to recipies as you gain skill would be a better idea. Otherwise, the possibility to reverse-engineer items would certainly be nice, although I guess it would come at a low priority in the system...

As for the boringness itself, I'd be happy doing nothing other than crafting and talking for hours - heck I was already crafting and talking in WiA... And by 'crafting', I mean 'slaughtering helpless critters just for kicks'. It's kind of the same thing. The actual fun was the talking =P

Hexedian
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Pre
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know if this goes under tradeskill but whatever. I like the idea of having weapons and armor ONLY avaible through crafting. You can get the items from monster drops and whatnot. But I dont really like the idea of having like a pickaxe to mine gold or fishing rod to fish. When you put that stuff in it makes it more of a rpg and imo, I would rather just fight monsters with friends and lvl up than have to role play, but again thats just my opinion.
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Sum Ting Wong
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also again i think abuse would play a major part in this for example:
Group discover something
Decided outragious selling price
Dont tell any one else
People must pay to get that item.


that would be kinda cool, then you could get a group of people and set out on a quest to find it, and they might try to stop you, and then if you do find it, everything comes crashing down around them, or you can become corrupt and evil too and sell it for a bunch or something. I like the idea of tradeskills and a playerbased economy.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:57 am    Post subject: Re: Community Discussion: Tradeskills - CD I Reply with quote

Quote:
1. What do you see as the pros and cons of adding in a Tradeskill system to Dawn of Daria?


Pro - The ability to be able to focus on something non agressive... After a hard day of monster killing, it'd be nice to sit back and enjoy the warmth of a nice hot forge. =D

Con - could flood the market with items and such making them nearly worthless.

Quote:
2. What do you see as the pros and cons of making a merchant type of character solely for tradeskills?


A tradeskill character? Hmmm... I'm on the fence here. On the one hand, it would be nice to be able to advance in levels without leaving the comforts of a well supplied city... On the other hand, if you have to get the materials for yourself, or would prefer to get them yourself so you don't have to buy them off of someone, then you'd not have the ability to protect yourself from the creatures or other players... Not a position I'd like to find myself in.

Quote:
3. Whats your input on allowing Fighters & other types of players to be able to craft? Good? Bad?


If there was a list of crafting skills that you could choose from in addition to the other skills a fighter could learn, then that would be fine... If a fighter learns some smithing skills then the fighter won't be as good as one of the same level who focused more on training. Let's not gloss over the fact that just because a fighter knows how to crush his enemy with a hammer, doesn't mean he knows how to handle him or herself around the forge and all it's tools. Really the best option would be if someone fought with certain weapons all the time, or advanced in that weapon's skill level far enough, then they'd know the quality and worth of said weapon or even item, and thus be able to bargain a more fair buying/selling price. John Q. Fuzznuts joined the game gets a few gold from a friend and buys a really nice dagger... Malystryx, being a master of the dagger, knows quite a bit about them and knows most of the makers and their signature marks. Malystryx buys the same dagger for a few silver knowing that this particular maker isn't that good, or hasn't had enough history making daggers to produce a famous weapon, at least until Malystryx fights the great Stant in a duel for the fifty whatever time and finally gets a win. ;D Yeah I know I strayed from trade skill to appraisal, but isn't knowing the cost of things important to a merchant? Which is a trade after all... Heck, I'd like to know that if I was a master swordsman, I could get better deals buying and selling to NPC's then some person who just started 5 minutes ago...

Quote:
4. What tradeskills do you think are 'best' for Dawn of Daria?


well, any trade skill over none at all is best. Hunting, fishing, mining, tayloring, smithing, crafting items/jewelry/potions, cobbling (shoes and roads ;P ), cartography, sailing, ship building, town construction, lumberjacking, rancher, farmers, pack/riding animal breeders, alchemists, ect... There's a long list of professions that 'could' be added.

Quote:
5. What tradeskills would you 'like' to see in Dawn of Daria?


I would like to see as many as possible, not just the same old smithing/crafting skills. (See question 4 for what I'd like.) People do more things then just those two.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Boddah
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:45 am    Post subject: Tradeskills Reply with quote

Hmmmm. Hello, and....

1. +Possibly help stabilize economy, and make people less reliant on drops.
+Variety of activities to keep players entertained.
+Way for n00bers to make money to start.
- Every single tradeskill system in the history of creation starts with abusable bugs and flaws, creating many character and inventory wipes, which cause losses of players.
- Could stray focus from the game and cause boredom.
- Take more time, more effort to program.
- Players return to tradeskill areas, leaving other possibly flawed places or scripts unfound.

2. +None
- One word... "Monopoly". One or few characters would reign supreme in a specific tradeskill and be able to sell at lower prices to people.

3. If a merchant class is made, then fighters, mages, etc. should be able to craft, but give the merchant class the a specialty in the skill, making the merchant better at the craft, or accelerate faster than the fighting based characters.... Naturally ;)

4. Basic trade skills, Mining (Then smelting, smithing...), Lumberjacking (Carpentry...), possibly Taming Horses and such, Fishing (Cooking)... And save more in depth ones for later updates.

5. Basically those, and maybe in the long run, some alchemy, maybe fletching, tanning, scavenging, jewelry production, tailoring, etc.

***If basic skills such as mining and Lumberjacking are given, do not leave them alone and worthless. Give the ore and logs a purpose other than selling to an NPC for a ridiculously low price.
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