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IRC CD - Contiued for Topic: Perception
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: IRC CD - Contiued for Topic: Perception Reply with quote

LookinToDie wrote:
Wouldn't it be better if you actually saw this something on the screen instead of getting all those flashes and cones?

Depends. Do you notice every single creature that comes on your screen without them being highlighted? I mean, we are talking about creatures that are supposedly hiding behind bushes and trees and rocks... You're not going to be able to see through a rock and see the creature now are you? But if you happen to see movement in your peripheral vision, say it poked it's head out from behind to get a quick look and then hid again, the screen shouldn't highlight up the creature for you because it's still hidden. However, if the screen maybe acquired a slight blue color (I'm not talking some bright blue highlighter color that makes your screen flash like a strobe light red eye flash on your camera, no... That's insanely rediculous.) to tell you your character has spotted something maybe, then makes a slightly darker cone in the direction, then puts a circle around the object(s) your character saw stuff from behind, then it should work out just fine. And I'm talking one flash, one cone, then the circle can stay on the creature's general area. Remember though that in Akarra your character actually saw a lot further then the viewable screen. You could scroll your screen to put your character in a corner and see a much larger field in 2 directions and none in the other 2 if you chose to. That's an extra half screen in any direction you choose. You could see creatures well before they ever had a chance at seeing you. A feature I particularly loved to use when running through an area I didn't know all that well. Well, maybe you don't, it wasn't a widely talked about feature, and it was used even less. But then again, you have to ask yourself, did you actually see every creature on the screen as you ran past? Especially in forest areas...

LookinToDie wrote:
The cones as described above worked well in HL, so they might be nice for hearing or smelling. As for the flash, you don't want your game to turn into a gay flicker if you have a hundred Darklings sneaking up on you ;F

Agreed, but again we're not talking about some bright ass flickers that make your neighbors thing you're some sort of mad scientist with a Frankenstein experiment going on that eventually starts giving players seisures... A slight change in the screen's overall color. Like if you have any photo editing software set up so you have the RGB slider bars... make like a split second slight shift to add more red to the picture, then return it to normal, same with blue, same with green... It's not very bright, and it's just enough to let you know what your character knows. As for a mass grouping of darklings... One flash (maybe flash isn't the best word to be using) one cone in their direction, then circles from that point on. You're already aware of their presence, no need to flash more and more and more. Besides, again, I'm only saying this about concealed creatures and NPC's and PC's... Moving ones should probably be exempt from creating flickers and notices because if you can't see a moving object near you, you deserve to get beat on for it.

LookinToDie wrote:
Another thing, the character should have a "high-perception" mode, in which he can't fight, moves slower or can't move at all to concentrate on watching, hearing or smelling.

Agreed. Stalking the wiley bunnies takes skill and caution. >=]
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Archosseus
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basicly I think the ideas are very good.
Saven's suggestion could be better. It's not to hard to understand for lower sensed players and it's easy to use. I dearly wouldn't want to see such an icon on top of me. Rather in a corner, perhaps a compass shaped device that if you get a perception it bumps to the direction. Three arrows, one for Hear, one for See and one for Smell.
The better the perception, the more preciser it bumps. This way you can see all 3 ways of perception, not just one icon. You should be able to Hear, see and smell at the same time so so should the compass (just the shape so you know what I mean).
Nothing about more arrows coming and such, the 3 arrows of perception just turn preciser. Costs less work and it's easy.
If you have say, 10 points of Hear, and 5 points of See and Smell your Hearing ability's arrow would be more preciser in the direction.
Each arrow has it's own color as explained in the first post.
I find this an effective way to dealing with perception.
I'll make an example of what i'm trying to point out, I will edit my post when it is done.

*edit* I'm not an artist when I'm in a hurry, so mind you the lack of originality.

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/2109/clod9bl.jpg

Something like that. Each color is a different perception, in that picture the player's smell is way off (green). Only then with West, North, East and South on it. Lines for more preciser. Daria's own compass-like what ever. ;D Only then that in a corner, not on top of someone.

Quote:

-How many levels of perception should be added for each perception?

I think it would be right to make it 30 points for each. I don't know why 30, actually, but I think it is a good number. Each two levels all 3 perceptions would gain 1 point. That means at level 60 you can Hear, See and Smell good. It doesn't matter at which level really, but I think it should be 60+ since the player at that moment is quite well experienced and should know where things come from.

Quote:
-Should there be an emphasis on racial bonus for certain terrain or region types? Knowing his/her homeland better than another
race. As well as racial bonuses for certain perceptions in general. Perhaps starting perceptions?

Yes, I really think they should. I would find it very strange for say, a Human have the same perception on their homeland as any other race. They are used to their homeland, they know it, which should give an advantage. I mean both Interior and Exterior.


The player should have different perceptions based on the time of the day and the weather. For example: A player has 30 points in See, Hear & Smell in general. At afternoon, clear weather, it stays 30 points. When it rains at afternoon, his See and Hear go down for a low number, perhaps 5 points. You could do that with every weather and every time.

Dawn, clear weather - -5 to See and Hear. See for it still being early, meaning the sky isn't as bright as afternoon so you see a bit less. Hear for it being Dawn, it's still early and your hearing isn't top notch. That goes with everything. Snow makes it harder for you to see and hear, storm makes it too. Your Smell is worser in a swamp and town. Things like that.
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Lorsaelos
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use words like "preciser" and "worser" again, and I will have to smite thee.

Problem is, you wouldn't necessarily hear AND see AND smell an object at the same time. So not all the arrows would be facing the same object--not necessarily.

Or did I misunderstand?

I really like the idea of weather affecting senses, though. As long as it affects it realistically and just dampens the senses slightly (no pun intended.)
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Archosseus
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lorsaelos wrote:
Use words like "preciser" and "worser" again, and I will have to smite thee.
Ack. That goes automaticly. I'd say it that way in my language, so I automaticly do it in English (which I am trying to avoid). Embarassed

Lorsaelos wrote:
Problem is, you wouldn't necessarily hear AND see AND smell an object at the same time. So not all the arrows would be facing the same object--not necessarily.

Or did I misunderstand?

That is indeed true. The arrows could just at any point show different directions. If the player is aware of their perception, you know your surrounded. If you aren't confident, you have to choose one of the three arrows your character is best at. I'd rather trust my 20 points of 'See' arrow pointing North then my 'Hear' and 'Smell' arrows of 5 points pointing South.

Things like this could be avoided though. If the arrows would be set like that so that if your walking North or South, the arrows only point at creatures in either of those directions. It could be a bit to effective this way so it isn't required or anything. I think though the character should have the intelligence of which arrow they would rather follow. The range where the arrows point shouldn't be extremely far. I was thinking about a maximum of one screen away from your screen, in all directions W, NW, N, NE etc. I think of this too avoid some random person following an arrow 200 meters away and getting somewhere he shouldn't be.
The higher your perception, the further it goes untill you reach the maximum limit. The radius should increases per 1 point. .. or 5 points to add a bit more simplicity.
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LookinToDie
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, all this discussion leads me to think, do we really need smelling/hearing/seeing all being different skills? IMO it's a bit excessive and too complicated. A game should be fun to play after all. Not like you'd like to struggle with the interface all the time trying to get the info you need.

Wouldn't it be better and more simple to have just one arrow for perception in general? The arrow may vary in color depending on whether the character is sure of the direction: green for "sure", yellow for "not quite sure", red for "there may be something over there or maybe not". This way you can have many arrows and not get confused..

Maybe combine it with a minimap to get a radar kinda thing:



Now imagine the same thing with 3 times as many arrows all pointing in different directions ;p


Last edited by LookinToDie on Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Manifold
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your ideas are great, LookinToDie. A combined 'radar' for all the senses.. My only irk is that it looks like some Sci-Fi interface.
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Sum Ting Wong
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some areas such as crowded cities should overload the senses, causing your radar to either not do anything or go off in every direction.
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Archosseus
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LookinToDie wrote:
Hm, all this discussion leads me to think, do we really need smelling/hearing/seeing all being different skills? IMO it's a bit excessive and too complicated. A game should be fun to play after all. Not like you'd like to struggle with the interface all the time trying to get the info you need.

Wouldn't it be better and more simple to have just one arrow for perception in general? The arrow may vary in color depending on whether the character is sure of the direction: green for "sure", yellow for "not quite sure", red for "there may be something over there or maybe not". This way you can have many arrows and not get confused..

Maybe combine it with a minimap to get a radar kinda thing:



Now imagine the same thing with 3 times as many arrows all pointing in different directions ;p
Sounds to modern for a medieval game. Also, seeing, hearing and smelling are way different things compared to each other. If a creature hides in the shadow with that minimap, you can't see it, because there's no difference between the three parts of perception...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Archosseus wrote:
Sounds to modern for a medieval game. Also, seeing, hearing and smelling are way different things compared to each other. If a creature hides in the shadow with that minimap, you can't see it, because there's no difference between the three parts of perception...


Will you clarify the point about not seeing something on the minimap, please? I think I didn't get the point ;F

Indeed it does not look very "medieval". However it's just the question of style. But as far as the concept is concerned I think that having one skill for perception would be good enough.

Take an example, you are walking through a forest.. a dozen orcs are approaching you. Your hearing is really acute, get, say, 10 arrows for hearing. You smell orcs, too. You are not sure about the direction nor the number but you still get another 5 arrows for smelling pointing in different directions. Your sight is quite good and you can notice most of the orcs from very far off. Get another 10 arrows for seeing. Need more? Oh, yes, of course there are a few rabbits right over there in the bushes and a few antelopes grazing a bit further off. With 3 senses you'll get way too much useless information than you need and you'll have the screen or chatbox clogged with perception indications.

If you don't like the arrow thing at all, will you present your ideas?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sum Ting Wong wrote:

some areas such as crowded cities should overload the senses, causing your radar to either not do anything or go off in every direction.
Possibly, but I think it should only react on hostile creatures and humanoids.

LookinToDie wrote:

Will you clarify the point about not seeing something on the minimap, please? I think I didn't get the point ;F


Well look at it this way: If there's a creature in the shadows or is invisible (to you), on your "radar" the arrow would point its direction but since you can't see it (because it's in the shadows) how else are you going to make it appear on the "radar" if the skills aren't devided but you just have one perception?

LookingToDie wrote:

Take an example, you are walking through a forest.. a dozen orcs are approaching you. Your hearing is really acute, get, say, 10 arrows for hearing. You smell orcs, too. You are not sure about the direction nor the number but you still get another 5 arrows for smelling pointing in different directions. Your sight is quite good and you can notice most of the orcs from very far off. Get another 10 arrows for seeing. Need more? Oh, yes, of course there are a few rabbits right over there in the bushes and a few antelopes grazing a bit further off. With 3 senses you'll get way too much useless information than you need and you'll have the screen or chatbox clogged with perception indications.

That is indeed true. It would be useless at such a point, but I said before that such a situation could be easily avoided by a limited radius the "map" can indicate a monster is close to the player.
The radius increases the higher the skills and I believe in later levels you won't be seeing that much creatures cropped up to each other.

It could also easily be avoided to script the map like that so it only shows a max of 3 creatures the most close to you. That is to avoid useless "spam arrows" on the radar map.

LookingToDie wrote:

If you don't like the arrow thing at all, will you present your ideas?
I never said I didn't like it, did I? Wink
It's just my personal instinct (and perhaps for everyone) to prefer my own ideas over others, but that doesn't mean I don't like your idea.
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