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(Unplanned) Community Discussion - Market Flooding
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Kalorian
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Joined: 01 Dec 2004
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Location: Uiejonbou, South Korea

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Came up with another thought. I am not sure 'officially' if we will have raw gems and such in Daria. I would like to see them to add enchantments or attributes to weapons and such but at the sametime I could see them as being used as currency among vendors as well.

Instead of just gold players would aquire rubies, saphires, Diamonds and the Skyborn gem as money. This combines the elements of bartaring and the money being consumed at the sametime.

Still the issue is of items being 'absorbed' or taken out of the system with time.
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BudMan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My suggestion was to use my wondering merchent idea but instead of gold, he will give you rare gems or stones. Or even a random ring or ammulet.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An idea for destruction of items, say NPC merchants will only buy back certain types of weapons. Weapon merchants will only buy back weapons, juck dealers will only buy back junk goods, armor smiths will only buy back armors, potion dealers will only buy back potions... Should this merchant hold any more then three of any given similar item, aka four Daggers of Swiftness, the 4th is destroyed because the merchant already has 3 that haven't been sold. So they 'could' likely end up with 3 Daggers of Swiftness, 3 Daggers of Stone, and 1 Envenomed Dagger, as well as a variety of swords axes, bows, ect. A person trying to sell the fourth one off, can sell it and get money for it, just as the third one did, but it won't go any lower. This way, players can still get 'decent' amounts of money from an NPC merchant, the market won't be flooded with items, and newbies can still buy a variety of equipment, or have the option of going after it themselves since every fourth is destroyed.

As for PC merchants, if a players want's to deal all in daggers and carry around as many as his or her inventory can handle, let's say 30, then so be it. They can have fun wandering around towns or set up shop somewhere selling 30 daggers to any who shows interest...
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Small chat for those following this thread. Ideas were tossed around, feel free to add your own.

Code:
<Kalorian> Ok, so I was thinking as I was winging my astronomy exam that perhaps we shouldn't just have gold.  Perhaps add another valuable material like gems as money.  But at the sametime gems could be used to add bonuses and such to weapons or items.  This would assist in the money inflation. (directed towards BudMan and anyone else that cares lol)
<Bud> geez Kal
<Bud> i was just going to post a new idea i had
<Kalorian> lol
<Bud> but you beat me to it
<Kalorian> nice
<Kalorian> great minds think alike
<Kalorian> for some reason we weren't earlier
<Kalorian> lol
<Kalorian> but it still has a problem with items not leaving the system
<Kalorian> perhaps when you enchant an item
<Kalorian> or add a gem or something to it
<Kalorian> your idea kicks in
<Kalorian> about a 'degrade' timer
<Kalorian> where the item will slowly become weaker
<Bud> well you could also trade the items for gems too
<Kalorian> the problem with that is balacing it so it is fair and not too inconvenient for the player
<Kalorian> but so that it couldn't be resold and flood the market
<Bud> thats what i was going to suggest
<Bud> trading the items for gems, insead of gold
<Kalorian> yeah well as I said in the post
<Kalorian> I am not sure if we will have Gems in Daria yet
<Kalorian> or what their role will be as of yet
<Kalorian> brb
<Bud> yeah i was just like 1 second away from making a post
<Bud> i had just logged in

<Kalorian> Budman - too much money in game = bad

<Bud> bad why?
<Kalorian> inflation - money being worthless.. players bartering instead of bartering & selling items
<Bud> money being worthless?
<Bud> im sure it will cost a pretty penny to craft items
<Kalorian> how do you knwo what the crafting system will be?
<Kalorian> it could as simple as combining 2 items
<Kalorian> and bang
<Kalorian> new item
<Kalorian> or it could be a huge formula
<Bud> both
<Bud> hehe
<Bud>  the amount of gold in the game, won't change the true value of items. it will only change the amount of gold in which the item is worth.  The true value of the item, will go up or down depending on supply/demand.
<Kalorian> yes I know
<Kalorian> but what I would rather see is a top item selling for 100g
<Kalorian> instead of 1 million gold
<Kalorian> less numbers = less complication for the most part
<Kalorian> we may have a system like WoW
<Kalorian> Gold - Silver - Copper
<Bud> never played wow
<Kalorian> or perhaps more levels
<Kalorian> well basically
<Kalorian> 100 copper = 1 silver, 100 silver = 1g
<Bud> sounds like D&D
<Kalorian> and in other games I've seen 100g = 1p and 100p = A
<Kalorian> Platinum and Arcan something
<Bud> it was a simaler system in akarra
<Bud> cc, sc, gc
<Bud> akarra had a great system in my opinion
<Bud> the game was great
<Bud> just unfinished
<Bud> haha
<Bud> thats funny
<Bud> [19:12] <Kalorian> we may have a system like WoW
<Bud> [19:13] <Kalorian> 100 copper = 1 silver, 100 silver = 1g
<Bud> akarra!
<Stant> akarra -> 100 copper = 1 silver, 10 silver = 1 gold.
<Kalorian> weird
<Kalorian> why 10s?
<Stant> dunno, that's just the way it was.
<Bud> oh yeah
<Bud> i forgot
<Bud> i don't think less money is the problem
<Bud> i think we need more things to spend it on
<Bud> like crafting, or simple stuff like teleporting
<Bud> clan and guild upkeep
<Bud> hired guards
<Bud> or people could save up and buy there own house
<Bud> or bat cave
<Bud> it could cost like 100000000000000000000000000 gold
<Bud> ok maybe not that much
<Lorsaelos> metric/powers of ten 2 win!
<Stant> very true.  We could only spend money on items...  single purchase things...  If we had to have money saved up for upkeep costs, that would drain it from lots of people...  especially if clans/guilds had fairly high upkeep costs.
<Bud> i liked the idea about merchants only holding 3 of the item
<Bud> one of my ideas Kal thought was sp bad is have a guy like eckard wondering around buying things for slightly high prices
<Bud> so*
<Bud> higher*
<Bud> didn't he do that in akarra
<Bud> pay more for some items
<Bud> like armor
<Kalorian> PC to NPC adds to the overall money of the world/people/etc..
<Kalorian> PC to PC utilizes the overall money of the world/people/etc..
<Stant> I hated syke and eckard...  They were never around when you really needed them....
<Bud> eckard would pay more for certian items
<Bud> then the normal armor dude
<Kalorian> the above adds to inflation if we are finding a way to take back the % from the overall players that they are getting extra from the NPC
<Bud> doh
<Bud> around and around we go
<Bud> its a merry go round
<Bud> i like the word extra
<Stant> I don't really care if some merchants will buy higher then others.  To me, finding the 'best' value isn't really important when I need to unload...
<Bud> if one npc buys armor for 200 gold and another buys it for 210 gold , its not extra
<Bud> Kal thinks all npc should buy and sell for the same price
<Bud> ?
<Bud> i wasn't saying it for value, all i was saying is a guy could pop up, buying items that are flooding the server
<Bud> and the people would be more likely to see, cause he pays a little more
<Bud> sell*
<Bud> but you can't predict what hes buying
<Bud> or when he appears
<Bud> so you can't take advantage of it
<Stant> But like I said, if merchants would specialize their buybacks rather then just buy anything that the player is selling, it would force you to seek out only certain NPC's to sell to, and this item destruction becomes easier since they all go to a few places...  As for price differences...  10 gold 'could' be alot in Daria depending on how far your money will get you, but even so, money can be tossed away easily on expendable goods like lanters and potions....
<Stant> *lanterns
<Bud> what if npc will buy anything for a real low amount
<Bud> but if you find the right npc he ill give you what the item is worth
<Stant> like a junk dealer, I guess it's fine.
<Bud> will*
<Bud> that could take alot of items out for say 20% of what the real items worth
<Bud> items really worth*
<Bud> plus if you made stuff like crafting expensive
<Bud> then everyone would be broke
<Stant> heh.
<Bud> espacilly if you got a different effect each time
<Bud> so people would try over and over again
<Stant> true
<Bud> nobody would have money
<Stant> not even the money whores like Enq and Gorilla.  ;D
<Bud> that one in a million craft could be worth more then all the gold in the land
<Bud> i just dont see how a npc giving you a few extra gold will change very much
<Bud> it was only an idea though
<Bud> i added that instead of gold, maybe he would give you a rare gem or something
<Bud> they you could get rid of the most common items, with no extra gold going into the game
<Bud> then*
<Bud> actully subtracting gold
<Stant> you could also say that if gems were implemented that the + value on the item would dictate how many gems can be added, and them have a world travelling NPC that deals with gems just to make it a bitch to find that person...
<Stant> a +1 axe, you could add a ruby and get a small fire enhancement, a +3 sword you could add say a ruby for fire, and two diamonds for light in the dark....
<Stant> those common weapons would then become special and soulbound and thus if ever dropped or sold, they're destroyed and all that money you put into it is gone as well...
<Bud> i didn't understand at all
<R4v3n> anyone awake tonight
<Stant> I hate it when instal freezes...  =\
<R4v3n> hey Kal you there
<Stant> YEah, I wandered off a little bit...  =\
<R4v3n> i need a game to play, else i am forced to do my homework.
<R4v3n> which we all know is a bad thing
<Stant> Basically since you say gems could cost a lot of money, I added that if you could add gems to a weapon to give it special properties, the weapon becomes unique and thus destroyed when you give it up so you end up losing the item as well as the money...
<R4v3n> ...hurray.
<Stant> that would suck up tons of coins if you find a nice sword and gem it up, but later find a better sword with more 'slots' and give up your old one and hook up your new one....
<R4v3n> the question reamins, could you remove gems from swords?
<Stant> That could chew up your savings like crazy...
<R4v3n> there should be a lottery
<R4v3n> for daria
<Stant> I'd say no, since the special property remains with the weapon, and since we're figuring out ways to remove money from the world.  ;P
<aiRWaLKRe> make it so u can take gems out but have a high chance of breaking the gem
<Bud> <Stant> Basically since you say gems could cost a lot of money, I added that if you could add gems to a weapon to give it special properties, the weapon becomes unique and thus destroyed when you give it up so you end up losing the item as well as the money...
<Bud> i posted that
<Bud> hehe
<Stant> or make unique items like that only buy back for 1/20th of their worth that was put into them, so that you can sell them, but the NPC you sell it to destroys them so that the item/weapon/what ever is removed from the world, and 19/20ths of the money you put into it is effectively removed as well....
<Bud> why not sell them to players
<R4v3n> people devise schemes to make money fast.
<Bud> yeah i had a good scheme
<Bud> i went out faught baddies and earned it
<Bud> collect the stuff and sold it to players and npc's
<R4v3n> just like your hillbilly ancestors would.,
<Stant> If you can find a player willing to pay lots for it, I guess go ahead..  I'm just working on removal ideas....
<Bud> put a transfer counter on the items
<Bud> item can only be transfered to so many inventorys
<R4v3n> nah, that's shit
<R4v3n> then people will transfer them and it will be on the last one
<R4v3n> and be like oh shit
<Bud> once it gets to 0 then its got a duribilty counter
<R4v3n> i can't sell it
<Stant> then they have to sell to an NPC.  =D
<Bud> no you can still sell it
<Bud> but its got a duribilty counter
<R4v3n> yea, but at a lower price
<Bud> meaning it will break
<Bud> eveutilly
<Bud> say you can trade into 3 inventorys then after that it will break over time
<Bud> but you can still trade it to player and npc
<R4v3n> we'll see how it comes about
<Stant> maybe with a duribility counter when it starts to break, you can take it to a smith of the right type and pay to have it refurbished, thus reverting it back to it's former glory, yet also removing more money from the game....
<R4v3n> you know this is all fine and dandy.
<R4v3n> but.,
<Bud> but not adding the transfer counter
<R4v3n> the alpha hasn't even come out yet
<Kalorian> thats why these discussion are important Raven
<Stant> That's not the point R4v3n.....
<Kalorian> you folks make the game as much as we do
<Kalorian> at early stages like these
<Kalorian> later on the game will be made and we will be finishing/critiqueing
<Kalorian> and there will be no room for new ideas
<Kalorian> at least not Pre-Release
<R4v3n> just like atrue communist gov't
<Kalorian> perhaps Post-Release
<Stant> we decide these things now, or at least get a general design down, then when that part is ready to be built, there's a system in place that WE like and will enjoy working with.
<Bud> i think limiting an item to 3 transfers, with a big clear label, then after the 3rd transfer,label it again with a duribilty counter that will destory the item ovet time
<Bud> could work
<Kalorian> anyways folks make sure these ideas are posted in the thread
<Kalorian> to give others a chance to comment
<Bud> im not sayin its the best idea
<R4v3n> hey Kal , how'd your exam go
<Kalorian> I have to go to bed.. have my programming project thing due tomorrow
<Kalorian> hehe was ok
<Stant> fuck them, they should be here if they want to participate.  ;D
<Bud> me personally i don't think its a problem
<Bud> if theres 1000s of the same item
<Kalorian> Stant lol need it in writing
<Kalorian> for the bosses
<Kalorian> so if you want your ideas heard
<Kalorian> post

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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, well we all agree that soulbinding common weapons would be very limiting. Perhaps if there's is weapon enchantment then that could be combined with soulbinding. Maybe make enchanted item bound to the person who first equips it after it's been modified. By this point the person has already decided to use it for a while, since they are investing more in it. I personally get annoyed with durability and having to repair all the time but I have to admit it does have it's place. Perhaps weapons shouldn't be repairable beyond 95% or so. Players may rather want a new blade then a used one, dunno though. If there's enchantments then perhaps the enchanted item should burn out after a while if it's not recharged once in a while, which would be a form of item destruction.
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Pre
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you guys mean like Diablo where items can be socketed into weapons and armor? Some gems would have an affect like +5-10 damage and some special weapons can have gems socketed into them.
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure which method they meant Pre. Hopefully the once the weapon is enchanted or modified it cannot be undone though.
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Kalorian
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Pre - yes there was discussion in regards to adding all sorts of different gems into items and other armor. But doing so would add a degrade timer. For each extra strengthening attribute you add to the armor it wears away more and faster. This could be an extra feature on items where they can 'resist' element enchantments/gems so players wouldn't be as worried about losing their Uber Sword of Newb Killing level 60 if they add lightning to it.

Also stated that once an item is enchanted with a gem it works for X amount of time based on the quality of the gem (perhaps a system like Diablo II but different). Once the gems enchantment dies out it weakens the item perhaps if it added fire damage it would pull away from its overall damage.

Yes I know there are a LOT of balancing issues that will need to be addressed and tweaked if we were to use a system like this. But overall I feel a system including this or parts of these ideas discussed so far in this post would add a more dynamic economy and stable 'money' flow in the game.

@BudMan - never said I wanted all NPC's to have the same price. On the contrary I would love to see prices flucuate. For instance a local Blacksmith in the town of Budsville is running low on resources . He has a quest available for you to go kill a certain type of lesser human creature that is located in the mines. By doing this you collect different types of ore and then return it to the blacksmith. Until this is complete the blacksmiths prices for his shop would be much higher and thus with less material to make items there are less items available in his shop. On a programming side this is a very simple formula that with time subtracts numbers from different ore types and based on those numbers changes the 'respawn' rate of that shop keepers items.

--------------------------------------

Recap:

- Making it so that gold is not the primary money. Will be the basic starting money
- Gems would be picked up as players fight harder monsters and gems would go into your 'coin' bag as higher money.
- Possibly a currency exchange as NPC's would pay only in gold for items as most humble shop keepers wouldn't have a bunch of gems lieing around.
- Why do this? This will keep prices to be a lot lower in 'number' Instead of paying 10 million gold for my cool new Shiney Newb Slaying Bow. I would pay 10 Diamonds.. which would combine bartering & trading money and such.
-NPCs prices varying based on the materials they have. So if a city is neglected by the player base for whatever reason they can effect this city in a negative way to where the prices begin to rise insanely and no one will really stick around at a town that is useless for them. This could play a big role in some of the ideas we have on groups of players.
-Common Items - Would NOT be soulbound. These items would have the ability to hold enchantments or gems. This allows a lot of room for crafting abilities. For instance,

Scribes - would be able to enchant certain types of spells on the item. Based on the scribes level in skill is how long the enchantment would last until it would disperse and then weaken the item.
Blacksmiths - would be able to add other types of metal types to weapons increasing durability and possibly making the items quicker.
Gemsmiths - would be able to determine the 'type' of gem that the user has. A simple identify process and could also combine the gem to the weapon or armor. Gems power would last based on the type/quality of the gem. Not ALL gems will be used as currency (go in coin purse)

Much more ideas could be placed here.

Keep the ideas/discussion flowing.
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idea 1
Another system that would slow inflation is having money exchangers that charge a percentage for their services. Why would anyone NEED to exchange? Say there are towns in different domains or kingdoms, each kingdom might have its own currency. Mountain domain's official currency is steel dollars, the valley tribes use beads, coastal uses gold or silver coins, etc. If each region or domain sells different items cheaper or produce items that are unique then players may rather exchange the currency they have instead of trying to spend hunting trying to hunt something that rewards the local currency. Then there are players who love to travel and explore the world and for them it may be necesary to have local currency handy, so they'd use exchangers as well. Obviously this could get confusing, complicated and be ridiculous to implement if the world is relatively small.

Idea 2
For fluctuating prices on goods, you could have a set number of available items on the world market. For example, everyday the server sees to it that blacksmiths in all the DoD world have a total of 500 Iron Swords. These swords are not divided up evenly though. Areas that do not have that many swords in their stock charge more for Iron Swords. You could change this dynamically by having traveling NPC merchants. Similar to whatever his name was in Akarra, but they don't sell to the public. Instead when a merchant completes his journey from City A (which had 150 Iron Swords) to City B (which had 80 Iron Swords) he transfers a certain number (based on percentage, market demand, or whatever) of swords from City A to City B thus changes prices. Maybe he brought 50 Iron Swords from City A; now City A has 100 Iron Swords in stock (meaning they charge a little more then before) and City B has 130 (meaning they charge less then before). Something like this could create some dynamic gameplay as there will be no permanent price for items. Normally when we play RPGs we memorize the best stores to buy goods at, but with prices changing like this it makes things a little more random
(which could be frustrating at times).
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Stant
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If gold isn't going to be the primary money exchange item, then what would all price values be based on? Gems? Well, how much is each gem worth? Most people would be confused beyond belief if they couldn't equate a items value to a money system they know. I'd love to see a game get away from the standard money for items and work more on bartering... This sword will cost you 2 quartz gems. (2 quartz gems are worth 1 topaz.) Well, I have an Opal gem in my bag, so I can trade that to the merchant for the sword, and get back a topaz and a quartz. (meaning Opal gems are the equivelent of 5 quartz gems, or 2 topaz and 1 quartz...) This would allow merchants to 'randomize your change' and allow players to get away from a coin dependancy.

But since you just answered me in chat that you'd like to see a few different currencies, um, well, I guess if you made a static exchange rate so that players can't abuse the exchange rate fluctuations just to make money, I'd go for that. Though my goal would be to move it away from standard currency all together and work more along the lines of bartering. =]

I also like the fact that NPC prices would vary based on raw materials available to them, though a well organized community would flood one merchant with materials to get item prices fairly low, then go to a starved marked and try to trade for high value cash outs. Actually it wouldn't even have to be a well organized community, just a larg enough group to make a worthwhile change in prices, then start spreading the word on who to buy from, and who to sell to.

DarkHydra, Idea 1 with the service fees, I think should apply to all merchants who don't actively make items themselves. A blacksmith wouldn't need to charge you a service fee to create a weapon for you, however, to change it, he would. I currency changer, makes no goods at all, so you'd get a service fee no matter what. (Hmmm, train of thought just derailed.....)
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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