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(Unplanned) Community Discussion - Market Flooding
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Enquillion
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should also be mentioned that in WoW, you can't drop items on the ground (destroys them) and you can't buy stuff back from NPC's. Basically, once you equip a Soulbound - Bind on equip item, there is no frickin' way for anyone else to get it. ^^

Frankly, I think the item system in WoW rules. The soulbinding prohibits a lot of twinking. Sure, I can send my new character 1g and have them buy their own leet equipment, but merchants charge ridiculous prices and I'm better off buying it from other players.

I don't spend a lot of time trading as I get all my equipment from quests, so it's hard to say more than that.

Anyway, there's bind on equip and there's bind on acquire. If you get an item you don't want to use or can't use and it's not bind on aquire, then you can trade it away. WoW always warns you before you bind an item to you (bind on acquire; "Looting this item will bind it to you", bind on equip; "Equiping this item will bind it to you"), so you don't screw things up. Except for quest rewards which are almost always bind on acquire (I think?).

With a similar system, I think it would work just fine. NPC controlled markets are becoming a bit...

Passe?
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Mythalinear
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see if I understand item flooding... So if a ton of one particular item is sold then that item would be worth less? (all newbs selling daggers to Holger's?) Sounds realistic. I see problems though. First of all, when the game is finally released all of us gung-ho gamers will play the poor thing to death all at once making all starting items worthless and everyone is poor. Another thing is that as soon as a player (a former elitist possibly) can get/make/find a new object then he gets lots of money for an item that will probably be cheap later on due to everyone else playing and catching up. Besides all that it would be potentially frustrating.

As for soul binding objects, not sure I like it either. For specific items (quest stuff) this would be great, but not so much for just picking normal items up or equiping them for a while. Why shouldn't you be able to sell your armour that you've grown out of to a younger fighter that you appreciate?
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as item selling price being based on number of items in the world, it could work with careful tweaking. There is another option that I have yet to see in action. Most games that have monsters dropping rare items do it randomly, say 1 out 10, or 50, or whatever. Perhaps you could limit the number of a rare item in the world based on the number of players that exist.

Say there's an Ancient Dagger of Mana. This dagger is not uber powerful, damagewise it's the same it just adds 15 to max mana. But since it's a rare item the devs have the server count and control how many occurances of it there are. Say, 20 for every hundred players. When that limit is reached it's no longer available in the treasure pool unless some are sold to NPCs who can't resell, or they're destroyed somehow.

This way, rare items remain rare. The downside to this is hordeing, but since it's not an uber powerful weapon it's not a major balance shift, and hordeing an item that is rare but not the most powerful shouldn't be too common unless someone is extremely bored and has more money and space then is ever needed. Obviously, this would need major tweaking. A system like this would also require a wide variety of rare items to keep trade and collectors interested. This also has the downside of promoting high prices during bidding because of its rarity but it does assure us that the system will never have that item as common as grass. Like I said this would require lots of tweaking and balancing but it's another possibility.
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BudMan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a free and open market would be the best. Buying Items from players and NPCs alike. There should be some profit from fighting strong baddies and carrying their heavy loot all the way back to town. Its not something thats important to me though.
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Dormeydo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want ordinary items to be soul bound, only quest items.

That quota thing you talked about DarkHydra could be a good solution. I agree that it would be good if the devs and admins can controll how many rare items there are
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The quota system does raise some issues of elitism to a certain extent, and I see that as being a downside, which is why it would need to be tweaked.

For instance, if the average level you need to be to kill the Skeleton King is 25, and the Skeleton King only drops 30 Skull Rings for every 100 players that are registered.

Let's say that 100 of us have started playing right when the game came out. The playing field is pretty level as far as getting strong enough and one day having a chance to have the King drop a Skull Ring, great! But after 6 months let's say our main chars average level is now 30 and DoD reaches the 200 player mark. Woohoo, right? There's 30 more Skull Rings that may be dropped before the new (higher) quota is reached. This is good news for the 100 odd original players who are already strong enough to immediately strat raiding the Skeleton Crypt to get the ring. The new players though would have to rush through the early levels as fast as possible and still may be at a disadvantage trying get their hands on a Skull Ring.

This is the biggest downside I see, if the quota'd item is okay but not end-all powerful then demand may remain low and wouldn't be as big a rush, but it would still be a possibility. And the more powerful the item, the fewer that would be available, the stronger the monsters that drop them, the greater the gap between vets and newbs, and the lower the chance that newbs will grow fast enough to have a shot at finding it. Obviously some issues.
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Kalorian
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far what has been discussed as well as concerns.

1. Mixed likes and dislikes of the World of Warcraft souldbinding system. With an emphasis I believe on 'like'

2. Concerns of not being able to sell equipment to players that you outgrow.

3. System where prices would very (NPC wise i believe) by the 'item count' of a certain item in the world.

4. An Item level system where items level as you use them. (personally don't like this idea. If anything a weapon should grow weaker through use)

@Myth - To answer your question you need to step back and look at this from a developers point of view. I prefer the term 'God' or "Demi-God" but Developer will work.. for now Wink . Below I will give you an example of what happens to a player economy, the very basics at least.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Disclaimer - All numbers/percentages and names of the items below have been created out of thin air. In no way do they represent what is being planned for Daria*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daria - Week 1 (Post Release)

NAME(Item Level) - Item # - AVG. EST. PC PRICE - Drop Rate

Dagger of Swiftness(1) - 99 - 25s - 1 in 100
Sword of Strength(3) - 45 - 80s - 1 in 250
Bow of Flames(5) - 15 - 1g25s - 1 in 600

Daria - Week 2

Note: Our first week of players that joined have now progressed beyond the level of the above items found. They have finally found a few new items of higher level.

Dagger of Swiftness(1) - 99 + 150 - 10s - 1 in 100
Sword of Strength(3) - 45 + 60 - 65s - 1 in 250
Bow of Flames(5) - 15 + 20 - 1g - 1 in 500
Dagger of Poison (7) - 20 - 1g75s - 1 in 750
Axe of Dria(10) - 7 - 3g - 1 in 1400
Bow of Vanquishing(15) - 3 - 10g - 1 in 2500

(Now what happens here is with the influx of new players and more monsters being killed 150 more of these daggers are found.. but at the sametime the first week players have a new dagger and are trying to seel on the market. So what happens is new players are forced to lower prices on the items as well as the people that have been here a week longer. Who does this hurt the most? The new player.)


Daria - Week 3

Note: Consider the above with another influx of new players to the game. This will be my last table is this can get very burden some trying to calculate percentages and such lol and I don't feel like juggling numbers on balancing and such.

Dagger of Swiftness(1) - 99 + 150 + 100 - 5s - 1 in 100
Sword of Strength(3) - 45 + 60 + 50 - 45s - 1 in 250
Bow of Flames(5) - 15 + 20 + 18 - 80s - 1 in 500
Dagger of Poison (7) - 20 + 25 - 1g25s - 1 in 750
Axe of Dria(10) - 7 + 15 - 2g - 1 in 1400
Bow of Vanquishing(15) - 3 + 6 - 8g - 1 in 2500
Axe of Barbarian Str(25) - 2 - 20g - 1 in 7500
Darian Avenger Swd(25) - 4 - 25g - 1 in 10000
Bow of Legolas(25) - 3 - 30g - 1 in 10000

So what happens is there is no way to really get items out of the game unless one way or another we find a way to 'destroy' them. I don't mean have them break on you as you are playing but having more ways to consume the item so we don't end up with 1000 Daggers of Swiftness that are worth nothing to the new player.

Now you guys can argue make it harder for the item to be found when there is more in the game world. That is no fair to the newer players as they can't pick up anything and are forced to buy used equipment all the time which can be very expensive as most players will tend to rip off new players (there are exceptions).

You can argue to bump up vendor prices and this would fix the problem. This would force players to sell to NPC's to make money and this would pull focus off a PC run market. Also it could possibly flood a bunch of money into the world which would cause a large amount of inflation where money would be worthless.

So this is what I am fighting.. This is what I am trying to discuss with you folks to help bring up a solution to this.

If we don't like the soulbinding idea how else can we make it so items are consumed and not constantly resold back to 2nd and 3rd and 10th users?
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Manifold
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Item deterioration springs to mind...
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BudMan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure there will be pleanty of guide's telling newbies what the prices of items are. Someday there might be a merchant guild.


I have 2 suggestions.(tell me what you think)

1. Have most regular Items craft into better items. Either with an enchantments or just plain upgrade. Putting enchantments on an item could also give it a durabilty counter, making it break someday.

2. Have a NPC merchant that buys items at higher rates then most shops or players. Make the merchant hard to find or only show up once a day. Have him buy the Items from players that are the most flooded on the server.
Pretend, there is 1000 Swords of Chaos on the server. Then you could send him around buying Swords of Chaos at a higher rate then the shops. Untill the number of Swords of Chaos drops to whatever you want it to be.
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Raven
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, i've given this some thought. Think of Daria as say a small city. Item 1 drops a given 1 in 25 times. Item 2 drops a given 1 in 100 times. Realizing this, people who have item 1 and sell it will sell it for about 1/4 the price of item 2. But, the players upon selling item 1 once, after selling and trying to sell the same item again, will get a lower price. Probably based on some equation (exponential decay? e^kt? ). The cost of item 1 should change a little but not a lot depending on how many there are to buy. Also, to control the amount of money that is in the market, the cost for additional things ie; repairing. Should reflect the total amount of money that player has total. This should be based on a proportion. To Summarize.

Item price should rely on the number there are available (only a little relying) and the base price. It will flucuate a little.

Selling an item (to an NPC) will reduce its price dramatically for say a given time period. The price will slowly clime back up to normal.

To control the money in the market one must control aspects of how it is spent. To keep from having to much inflation. Reflect the cost of certain misc. things like repairing to the overall amount of money the player has.

If you guys need some economic back-up, or equations, feel free to ask.
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