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A Few Random Ideas
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nebbish
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:38 pm    Post subject: A Few Random Ideas Reply with quote

Well, we were mostly bored in the #daria so a big conversation about ideas came up and i thought it could be helpful so i decided to post it here. I got rid of most of the idle talk in the middle of it.


[21:27] <BudMan> im not sure a flawless system can be made but you can get close
[21:27] <nebbish> well what do you think is best system?
[21:28] <BudMan> lets use KSing
[21:28] <BudMan> now i have more then one idea
[21:29] <BudMan> say you attack a monster first
[21:29] <BudMan> then anyone who attacks it and is not in your fs
[21:29] <BudMan> then you can attack them
[21:29] <Origon> flaw
[21:29] <BudMan> they get a temp pk
[21:29] <Origon> lemme state the flaw
[21:29] <BudMan> sure
[21:30] <Origon> some highbie wants a guy dead without going pk
[21:30] <Origon> he pretends to be midbie, finds him
[21:30] <Origon> attacks some monster nearby, pretends to suck, and asks for help
[21:30] <Origon> when the midbie attacks, highbie owns him
[21:30] <Origon> done
[21:30] <Origon> i know id abuse that for once
[21:33] <nebbish> if someone needs help they can shot out this quick to type command
[21:33] <nebbish> that allows someone to save you
[21:33] <nebbish> but can't be pked for ksing
[21:33] <Origon> neb - some people might typo or spell wrong or type slow
[21:34] <nebbish> make it very easy to do
[21:34] <nebbish> or even a button
[21:34] <nebbish> that just automaticlly types out HELP
[21:34] <nebbish> but can only be pressed once in a minute
[21:34] <nebbish> to avoid spam
21:34] <Origon> flaw
[21:34] <Origon> if some newb gets in trouble and sees a highbie walk by
[21:35] <Origon> he presses it to yell 'HELP' or w/e
[21:35] <Origon> the highbie is an elitist and just ignores it and walks by
[21:35] <Origon> the newbie is dead meat if he has to wait a minute
[21:35] <BudMan> what if you got the xp for the amount of damage you do to a monster, so if you hert it 90% and some KSer attacks he only gets 10% xp
[21:36] <nebbish> hmm... i suppose orgion
[21:36] <Origon> has to be adjusted for fs's
[21:36] <nebbish> newbies would over use the button
[21:36] <BudMan> why?
[21:36] <BudMan> fses would just be normal
[21:37] <Origon> well 2 guys wanna kill some monster
[21:37] <Origon> lets say me and bud
[21:37] <Origon> we're both same level, good friends, same equip
[21:37] <BudMan> are we in an fs?
[21:37] <Origon> yes
[21:37] <BudMan> ok
[21:37] <Origon> i miss, you crit
[21:37] <Origon> i fumble, you crit
[21:37] <Origon> you get all the exp
[21:37] <BudMan> nope
[21:37] <Origon> i get jack shit out of the fs
[21:37] <BudMan> fs is normal
[21:38] <nebbish> it still has a problem
[21:38] <BudMan> lets hear it
[21:38] <nebbish> that if someone stole 40% of my monster
[21:38] <BudMan> the fs would not change
[21:38] <nebbish> i would still be mad
[21:38] <nebbish> if it was a non f's person
[21:38] <Origon> true
[21:38] <Origon> it only works if you're higher / stronger then the kser
[21:38] <nebbish> not to mention the drop
[21:38] <Origon> take into account that highbies also ks
[21:39] <Origon> although not as often
[21:39] <nebbish> and the cash dropped
[21:39] <nebbish> its a good idea so that a kser doesn't gain a whole kill
[21:40] <Origon> what, you wouldnt get pissed off if someone stole 50%+ of your kill ?
[21:40] <BudMan> lets say if you hert the mosnter for atleast 50 % then all the xp goes to you no matter who kills it
[21:40] <Origon> yea, but its only half
[21:40] <nebbish> what if newbie killing rabbit
[21:40] <BudMan> no not half
[21:40] <nebbish> and a higbie comes and kills it in one
[21:40] <nebbish> taking 70%
[21:40] <Origon> knowing newbie hits in akarra
[21:41] <BudMan> well a rabbit only takes a few hits even for a newbie
[21:41] <Origon> it can be up to 90-100%
[21:41] <Origon> hitting for 0-2 and rabbit has 10hp
[21:41] <Origon> and he hits you same as you do him
[21:41] <Origon> its still a challenge
[21:41] <BudMan> thats just silly
[21:41] <Origon> thats how it was in akarra
[21:41] <nebbish> ok the % exp thing is a good idea
[21:41] <nebbish> but i don't think it stands alone to prevent it
[21:42] <nebbish> it would need to be with another method to prevent kser that works well with it
[21:42] <BudMan> whats the big flaw?
[21:42] <BudMan> that a highbie will kill a rabbit and steal the xp
[21:42] <BudMan> lol
[21:42] <nebbish> that i would still kill someone for attacking my monster
[21:43] <nebbish> thats only problem i have with it
[21:43] <BudMan> why if you do 50% of the damage and attacked it first then you get 100% of the xp
[21:43] <Origon> neb - or in your case, try to
[21:43] <nebbish> yeah since i will be a cleric lol
[21:43] <BudMan> and the drop
[21:43] <nebbish> not that ksing will be an issue for me
[21:43] <Origon> i meant low-level XD
[21:44] <BudMan> as long as you attack it first and do 50% damage

[21:44] <nebbish> i suppose it works well budman
[21:45] <sdfgsdfg> if you attack the monster there's a timer
[21:45] <sdfgsdfg> only you can attack it
[21:45] <sdfgsdfg> just for a few secs
[21:45] <sdfgsdfg> needed for another hit
[21:45] <nebbish> hmm a 2 second timer would be good
[21:45] <BudMan> thats a good idea too
[21:45] <sdfgsdfg> if womeone else attacks the monster while you are supposed to be fighting it
[21:46] <sdfgsdfg> well someon out of the fs
[21:46] <nebbish> yeah as long as the timer only counts for hits you do
[21:46] <nebbish> if you run you can get saved
[21:46] <sdfgsdfg> this someone can only hit for 10% of his normal damage
[21:46] <nebbish> after 2 seconds which isn't long at all
[21:46] <sdfgsdfg> everything else like in akarra
[21:46] <BudMan> ya thats a good idea
[21:47] <BudMan> even if someone is going to save you its going to take them longer then 2 secs
[21:47] <sdfgsdfg> this way you can get saved if you need t
[21:47] <nebbish> by the way
[21:47] <nebbish> who are you
[21:47] <sdfgsdfg> LookinToDie
[21:47] <BudMan> lookintodie
[21:47] <nebbish> ahh k Razz
[21:48] <nebbish> seems to be so
[21:48] <nebbish> but death penaltys is one i'm most interested in
[21:48] <nebbish> how can you make death something you want to avoid
[21:48] <BudMan> i don't think greif players should be alloud to inflict these penaltys
[21:48] <nebbish> but then something that won't ruin the game
[21:49] <BudMan> losing money and enq was pretty effective
[21:49] <nebbish> maybe after first pk by one guy
[21:49] <BudMan> even small amounts of xp would be ok
[21:49] <nebbish> the next pk won't have any penalty
[21:49] <nebbish> i mean by same guy
[21:49] <nebbish> of course a timer
[21:49] <BudMan> i think it would be cool if when you made your guy you chooose if you want him to be a pker or not
[21:50] <nebbish> lol
[21:50] <BudMan> then the pkers only attack each other
[21:50] <nebbish> heh a pker cleric Very Happy
[21:50] <BudMan> we already solved the KS problem
[21:50] <BudMan> that would stop greif players from targeting people who just wanna play and have fun
[21:50] <nebbish> and it works well in theory
[21:52] <BudMan> me id be non pker
[21:52] <BudMan> what if at anytime you could change into a pker
[21:52] <BudMan> but then you can never go back
[21:53] <nebbish> yeah i was thinking that too
[21:53] <BudMan> u might be able to abuse it for one lucky kill
[21:53] <nebbish> but thats about it
[21:53] <BudMan> but then you could be hunted forever
[21:53] <BudMan> don't seem worth it
[21:53] <sdfgsdfg> hm
[21:53] <nebbish> and even if you turn pk
[21:54] <nebbish> and kill someone
[21:54] <nebbish> you still will suffer the penalty what ever that is
21:54] <sdfgsdfg> what about people who are just plain annoying or luring spawns on you?
[21:54] <sdfgsdfg> you won't be able to kill them ;F
[21:54] <BudMan> id accept that
[21:54] <BudMan> i wanna be a non pker
[21:54] <nebbish> plus what are friends for
[21:56] <BudMan> think about it thought, some of the highest level chars could stay non pk and you would never have to worry about them pking you
21:57] <nebbish> one slight problem
[21:57] <nebbish> i just thought of
[21:57] <BudMan> lets hear it
[21:57] <nebbish> clerics
21:57] <nebbish> i could heal someone
[21:57] <nebbish> who is fighting
[21:57] <nebbish> and they couldn't touch me
[21:57] <BudMan> hmm
[21:57] <BudMan> interesting point
[21:58] <BudMan> all clerics are pk
[21:58] <BudMan> lol
[21:58] <nebbish> lol
[21:58] <BudMan> i guess something could be made up
[21:58] <BudMan> like a temp pk for healing a pker
[21:59] <nebbish> so if i heal someone fighting another player
[21:59] <nebbish> i become pk temp
[21:59] <BudMan> yeah
[21:59] <nebbish> for like 10 minutes
[21:59] <BudMan> or a little less
[22:00] <BudMan> i just think it would be cool, if i never had to worry about pking anyone or anyone pking me

To sum up, 2 ideas to help solve the KSing problem:
(by lookingtokill)

- by BudMan: the character or the fellowship who dealt a certain amount of damage to a monster(50-80%?) gets all the xp and the drops, even if a KSer who was passing by got the final blow.

by LookinToDie: with every attack a character or a fs fighting a monster starts a timer of about 2 secs (Nebbish) during which only this character or fs will do full damage on this very monster. Any character outside the fs will do only 10% of his normal damage to the monster during this 2 second attack time.

Griefplaying:

- by BudMan: give the player an opportunity to choose whether he/she wants to be a PKer or not. PKers would only be able to attack and be attacked by other PKers. The non-pk characters can choose to become PK at any moment but there's no going back. Remains the problem of clerics.. Either all clerics = PKers Wink or they get a TPK status while healing other PK characters.


Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the last part you stated that there's no going back from PK. Suppose the system is set up like Akarra's where if you're PK, NPC's won't deal with you. That would kill this system completely. You'd need a way to remove the PK status. Anyways, PK status and the like was discussed in another thread so let's not get into that here. This system seems to be fair enough in type, but in practice it may work out to be totally different then what's envisioned.

I like the 2 second timer thought the most. It's long enough to allow one to make another attack hopefully, yet short enough that should a person be in need of help, it can be provided quickly.

XP splitting is a fence issue for me. On the one hand, I'd rather not split it at all with anyone who isn't in the FS, or just decides to walk up and KS, yet on that same note, I'm less inclined to help someone if I get nothing for my efforts... So hmmm....
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Lorsaelos
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, that is indeed the best system out there.

I can't find anything wrong with the system, at least from a "fairness" point of view. It does detract from "realism" a bit, but some sacrifices must be made in the name of making a game fun.
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Enquillion
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That 2 second idea was quite good, though perhaps more than 2 seconds are needed. 5 maybe? Some spells take long time to cast and some weapons are slow.

And yet, if you're getting owned, you only have to run (or just stay alive without harming the monster) for 5 seconds before an elitist bitch like Stant is willing to intervene. Err, you get it. ^^

I don't like the certain-amount-of-damage idea, it's so annoying that I have to repeat that not every character is a pure-damage character. Say I polymorph a monster, perhaps making it very vulnerable to melee attacks, however also making it unable to attack me, which is good. Then while I prepare an offensive spell, some idiot goes up and kills the monster 'cause he can 1 hit it when it's polymorphed. That's just one example. I liked the "tagging" idea a lot more.

As for PK'ers, I find that PvP is a part of the game, and should not be so brutally discouraged. Too much abuse...
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thewreck
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is a thought on Ksing:

idea1: if another player attacks a monster you are attacking, you two will be considered a fellowship for that monster, meaning, it will have increased exp, and the money is splitted,

idea2: if you are working on a monster, another player cannot attack it, instead if it clicks on the monster the player will automatically send a join fellowship request to your screen which can be affirmed by say F1 and denied by F2..

just some quick thoughts.
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BudMan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stant wrote:
In the last part you stated that there's no going back from PK. Suppose the system is set up like Akarra's where if you're PK, NPC's won't deal with you. That would kill this system completely. You'd need a way to remove the PK status. Anyways, PK status and the like was discussed in another thread so let's not get into that here. This system seems to be fair enough in type, but in practice it may work out to be totally different then what's envisioned.



What we were talking about had nothing to do with the old akarra system. Basically you could choose to live your life in peace with any fear of being pked. At any time you could change in a PKer. This dosen't mean anything like being a PKer in akarra. It just means now you can PK people and they can PK you.
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LookinToDie
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enquillion wrote:
I don't like the certain-amount-of-damage idea, it's so annoying that I have to repeat that not every character is a pure-damage character. Say I polymorph a monster, perhaps making it very vulnerable to melee attacks, however also making it unable to attack me, which is good. Then while I prepare an offensive spell, some idiot goes up and kills the monster 'cause he can 1 hit it when it's polymorphed. That's just one example. I liked the "tagging" idea a lot more.


Good point, I haven't thought about attacks other than damage-dealing. However you may have a lowered cast rate instead of lowered damage. Lowering damage, cast rating or w/e is in fact a compromise between reducing KSing and allowing someone to help you if you are in danger.

In the example above, if the timer is really short, indeed you may find someone KSing your monster, while you prepare a complicated spell. If the timer is really long, enough for casting this super-duper devastating spell, imagine you fizzle Twisted Evil Then the person standing right next to you won't be able to save your life because he/she can't attack the monster.
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Archosseus
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thewreck wrote:
here is a thought on Ksing:

idea1: if another player attacks a monster you are attacking, you two will be considered a fellowship for that monster, meaning, it will have increased exp, and the money is splitted,

idea2: if you are working on a monster, another player cannot attack it, instead if it clicks on the monster the player will automatically send a join fellowship request to your screen which can be affirmed by say F1 and denied by F2..

just some quick thoughts.
Not bad.. that ain't bad at all. That would be perfect.


PK'ing should not turn in to a sport. If you'd relate it to the Death Penalties topic this idea would be a chaos. PK'ing should be kept the way it was in Akarra and some touches to different classes and races. Belief is important for some races and classes. A paladin going on a spree killing innocent people surely is to be punished, say his divine power is taken away from him because the one he worships finds him unworthy. This kind of situations have to be thought out. What would seperate an false kill from a right kill? Evil or good? One of the ways to set that is to only allow such classes kill PK'ers. If a paladin would turn into a PK he sure hell has to pray at a temple to keep his divine powers and the trust of the one he worships. Either he keeps it or he becomes an anti-paladin, his opposit who specializes just like him but then evil and in black magic.
How could you do this with such as a mode you could freely PK others and they you? These things would be missused and abused.
Getting PK'ed is the worry for the victim. Avoid such things and you won't be PK'ed. It's the chaotic alikes that should be blamed for killing a random person.
You can challenge a player to a duel, in such a case you wouldn't turn into a player killer but simply owning someone random picked is the fault of the PK'er. And as his punishment he must wear a PK status. There should be no way around this.
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Dw
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thewreck wrote:
here is a thought on Ksing:

idea1: if another player attacks a monster you are attacking, you two will be considered a fellowship for that monster, meaning, it will have increased exp, and the money is splitted,

idea2: if you are working on a monster, another player cannot attack it, instead if it clicks on the monster the player will automatically send a join fellowship request to your screen which can be affirmed by say F1 and denied by F2..

just some quick thoughts.


#1 - I really do want to share the exp and loot with a moron that steals my kills, oh yes I do!

#2 - Urgh, the amount of spam. Some idiot in akarra spammed me with the trade window (oh yes under level 15) and I could do nothing about it, gg :E

didn't mean to bash your ideas to hell, sorry if i sounded like it :p
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Eponick
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the system EQ2 has. If your fighting a monster no one outside your group can attack it but at anytime if you dont think you can handle it you can click a button to let anyone attack it and you can run away if you want. Or you can just run away out of the monsters range and it will stop following you eventually. The monster also gets healed a few seconds after you run from it that way you cant come back in a minute after drinking some potions and slowly kill a monster you shouldnt be fighting in the first place. It completley prevents KSing and it lets you live if you cant handle the monster Razz

Also I dont like the "If I get so much of its health down I get all the exp" idea, you also have to keep powerleveling in mind. You get a monster way higher than you to half its health then a friend of yours finishes it off. You get all the exp and level way faster than you should.
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