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Thoughts on Weapons and Armor
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Stant
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Joined: 02 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very early morning novel for me that is halfly off topic. ^^

DarkHydra wrote:
You didn't mention anything about thieves but I did in my first post, looks we could all learn to read entire posts, hmm? (raises eyebrows)


Lower those eyebrows kid before I slap them clean off your head. =D I read your first post perfectly. I know YOU said something about thieves in your first post, but I never adressed that in my first or second post. Your second post stated
DarkHydra wrote:
Stant why won't you stand for a wizard or thief wearing heavy armor?
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that was saying that somewhere in one of my first two post I said something about thieves right? Right! Which I did not, as I so clearly stated in my third post.
Stant wrote:
As for thieves, when did I say anything about thieves???
Now you state the above top quote, which suggests to me that you think I should do a better job reading too, which I obviously do not need to do. Again I'm going to have to tell you to do a better job reading because I didn't say post, I said sentance.
Stant wrote:
Please read my whole sentance, not just the part you disagree with...
You following me on this? Basically what I'm saying is don't put words into my mouth, that irritates the shit out of me, and don't try to tell me to improve something I'm clearly much better at. OK? ok! =D

Now for the on topic stuff...

Loresalos, we're not talking light combat... We're talking heavy combat... He wants frail mages to train away their weak bodies at the expense of training their minds and become bulky fighters so they can wear heavy armors. I'm saying if you want to wear bulky heavy armors, start off as a fighter, then become one of the special types of fighters that has spell like abilities, like, as you mentioned, paladins. They are slightly weaker then the pure fighter because they get spells for healing, and minor protection. There's no reason for a real mage/wizard to wear heavy armors when they get spells like stoneskin and protection from elements that have all the same benefits as heavy armor and does absolutely nothing to add weight or hinder movement, as well as likely be able to summon elementals or familiars. Why would I want to play a fighter when I could play a wizard, train to get heavy armors, then be able to cast stone skin and protection from elements, call up a familiar and elemental to help me out in battle, and whatever else on myself, and effectively double, triple, quadruple, or whatever, all the protection that I have? It would be foolish to play a fighter if mages could be like that. Same with weapons, why would I only want to go fighter and only use a sword, when I can go wizard and use a sword and cast chain lightning?

That's why I said in all fairness if wizards/mages could train up and mirror an advanced form of fighters to get the heavy armor, then fighters should be able to train up and mirror an advanced form of wizards/mages to get the powerful spells. And if such a time came where all that was possible, then why make the distinction between wizard and fighter when they both can train out their weaknesses and wear heavy armors and cast strong magics? That's simply just retarded. You may as well just switch to a skill based game and not have classes at all since that's all you're doing anyway.

DarkHydra wrote:
What's wrong with a char who medium magic and medium protection? He will not be as powerful as someone with heavy magic and light protection. But he will soak up a couple more hits perhaps then someone who is all power no protection. It's a tradeoff. I don't see how that's being unreasonable.

You didn't ask for that, you asked for a wizard/mage, who's general purpose in life is to cast strong magic, to also, in addidion to the protection spells that they will get, also be able to wear heavy armors, thus making a strong magic, super strong protection character...
DarkHydra wrote:
He will still never be as strong in HtH as a warrior his same level and will not be able to wear armors as heavy as a warrior his same level because so much as already been invested into the metaphysical.

Now you're changing your request. First you ask for a wizard who can wear heavy armors, now, in your own reasoning, you're saying they can't wear them... "and will not be able to wear armors as heavy as a warrior his same level because so much as already been invested into the metaphysical." Armors are only put into 3 categories, light, medium, and heavy. If you want a wizard to be able to wear the heavy armors, what is left for fighters and warriors that are higher then heavy? There isn't! Are you getting what I'm saying? You must be getting it, because you've changed your story between your posts...

C'mon... Think before you post guys.
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Lorsaelos
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I guess I wasn't paying too much attention to the thread. Good points, Stant.
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Avaith
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats real good post Stant. Thanks for clearing things up.
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay sorry looks I like confused people on a few things. The reason I brought up thieves at all was not directed at you Stant. I brought it up as being that this would apply to thieves as much as it would magic users and vice versa with fighters (though not stated outright). It was as much directed to the dev team as much as anything. I'm sorry you took that so personally.

Now, we really can't say what spells will be included so there's no use in commenting on that as yet. However, I can think of a reason why I would want to wear a little heavier armor (say splint mail) instead of the normal lighter fair given to wizards even when I have stoneskin (or its equivalent available). That has to do with my magic reserves. If I'm soloing then I'm going to be the one under the gun so If I can train a little bit and wear splint I may not need to waste the time and mana in armoring up with spells when I'm attacked and have an extra hit or two plus a little mana extra for the fight itself.

I think you misunderstood my earlier posts, because my example of a character having medium power/medium armor is not a deviation. DUDE, I haven't changed my request. Yes I want a wiz who can EVENTUALLY wear heavy armor but I never said a wizard should have the stats to wear the same armor as a fighter of his own level.

Example, Lets say level 15 Wiz has enough stat pts to wear leather. The level 15 Warrior will say has enough pts to wear chainmail.

Now this is fine with me, I just don't want that leather to be the best that Wiz can EVER get. Maybe by level 45 the Wiz will have syphoned off enough pts to str and dex to wear chain. The level 45 Warrior now has full plate perhaps. That's FINE with me, if a wizard and warrior both have leather or chain or plate or whitey tighties, I would EXPECT the warrior to still have better armor.

The system Akarra used was fine with me, the intention of my original post was to promote that system without saying outright, copy akarra. It would be easier (for developers) to leave these options open for people then to create new classes for every little variation. This would mean opening up skills, spells, armors and weapons to be based on stats rather then class, then that is what I'm asking for. Hope this clears this up a little.
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Dormeydo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you're a mage and you put all you're statpoints in strength and endurance you'll be able to wear the armor in that same level as the figher, but you, realy lack in you're magic abilities. Wink

So i if you want to wear heavy/medium armor you have to sacrifice a lot of intelligence and wisdom and you woud be a bad mage for you're level. I think that's a free choice, but if i would play as mage i would do everything to maximize my magic abilities, instead to wasting my stats on strength.
If you're superior in magic you'll be able to kill you're foe in shorter time i.e. before he can reach you for a good hit. It you have avarge magic abilities and wearing an armor you won't be able to kill you're foe that fast and you're foe will hit you a coupple of times more then they would if you're specialized in magic only. This is a mutch slower way to level you character
When i play mage i try to fetch a fighter for me, and since WiA focused a lot on co-operation, this benefitted both parts. So can't see why a battle mage is better then a mage only, but as i said it's a free choice and if it's possible to make it perfectly balanced it's ok imo

The same for the adventurer class, it's hard to make it balaced and that would probebly need a whole new skill system
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Last edited by Dormeydo on Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Avaith
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with Dormeydo.
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Tyrael
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bwhahaha! Don't ask me why I laughed, I really don't know.

Anyways, I would say that I'm a supporter of class restrictions on weapons and armor. For various reasons, blah blah blah probably all stated somewhere in this post.
Basically, wizard + heavy armor = no spell for you! (Meaning: Sure, the darned wizard can put the full plate mail on, but casting spells, heck, even walking is going to be difficult. A full plate of armor is reeeeeealy heavy. And awkward. To even wear chainmail comfortably you have to be one buff fellow. The poor wizard would have trouble standing up, let alone casting a complex spell.)
Why? Cuz I'm old and set in my ways! Not really, but hey, it could work.

For an example of a game that has the "no restrictions policy" is the original Diablo. It was cool to be all three classes at once, but very unrealistic.(Why was that game so addicting?!?) It just doesn't make sense for the person to be all classes.
For an example of the other side comes the Baldur's Gate series. Greatest games ever.(Yah, I said it.)
Is it a coincidence that this is so? Irrelevant. And probably. They both are great games so, coincidence or not, it means nothing. Maybe. Bwhahaha! (It's late...)

Um.. ramble ramble ramble... ah yes. Now to bring in logic! Or more rambling. Either or.
Alright, here's the situitation. The game has no class restrictions. Twiddle-dee-dee. Wizardboy goes nuts and levels till he is the super highbie. For various reasons, and for kicks, wizardboy has put a few points into strength(noob wizardboy..). Wizardboy goes to the store and buys uber heavy armor and prances around casting spells with it. Tra-la-la-la-la.
Why can he do this? Because, it's a lower level fighter armor and therefore has a lower strength requirement. It's just not realistic that any wizard would ever wear heavy armor. If magic did exist, wizardboy would be transformed into fizzleboy when he put any type of armor on. And theifboy would never be able to sneak up on anyone clanking around in a suit of metal.

I had some other obscure reason too, but I forgot it. I'm sure it was good too. Anyways, while the old akarrian system was okay, I think it could and would've been better. Fine, don't say that wizards can never wear heavy armor. But, ability restrict. Heavily.
As the wizard puts on heavier and heavier armor, his chance of fizzling should increase drastically. Robes is the best, then regular clothes, then leather armor, studded leather armor, chainmail, etc etc. Once a wizard puts on the heavier armors, his chance to fizzle becomes 99.9% chance. Even if he has won the strongest man competition an extremely restricting armor(as full plate tends to be) his spell-casting abilities are going to be severely hampered.
As for thiefboy, well, his sneaking is going to suck. And restricting things make him suck at pick-pocketing, lock-picking, and all the other various nefarious deeds thieves are involved in. Plus he can't exactly hide in the shadows wearing some shiny armor.
Soo.. I say restrict the crap out of everything! :E

P.S. I hope that last statement won't bite me in the buttocks later on....
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Dormeydo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, like it that way. All non warrior-skill will be verry restricted it you wear a heavy armor. (With some exeptions maybe, cause the paladin must be able to cast his heal magics even if his heavily armored, perhaps a "casting while wearing armor skill" could work. But i think cleric spells are much easier to cast while wearing armor whan wizzard spells, so the wizzy will have a lot of troubble casting while wearing heavy or medium armor even if his "casting while wearing armor skill" are at maximum.
Maxed skill and medium armor would result in 30% more fizzles and wearing heavy armor would result in 70% more fizzles. That would prevent Wizzard from waering heavy armors. While a cleric could (with maxed skill) cast his clericspels at 5% chance of fizzle while wearing heavy armor
It hasn't been any talking about clerics yet, but i think clerics should be able to wear heavy armors while casting
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually in one of my posts I did mention that healers (quasi cleric) could benefit from this as well. Btw, where has our perception that magic can't be cast while wearing armor come from? I mean this isn't Arcanum, where technology and magic are incompatible. I dunno, oh well, if magic is cast by making motions with the hands then I would agree that wearing heavy armors could restrict some movement and at the very would slow the casting of the spell. However, if it's cast through reciting of incantations, then about the only to retrict it would be a thick face mask perhaps.

Btw, has anyone had a a modern day witch try and cast a spell while wearing recreation armor? My guess would be they could do it just as well with armor as without. Just an observation trying to be argumentative.
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Dormeydo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most mages are too thin and too weak to carry the wieght of an heavy armor, unless you're puting all you're attributepoints at strength and then you will lose much of you're magic abilities.
Perhaps there can be fighter mage clas witch allows lighter and medium armors and cast protection magic and som basic other magic. But won't be able to cast any advaced magic and hardly any raged offensive spells at all and you fight with weapons and not with magic
Think it's best if this class is reached trough the fighter tree if we're going to have the same tree system as we had in WiA(i realy liked that system, so i hope you'll keep it)
In this case you're more warior than mage, like the paladin is more warrior then healer
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