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Thoughts on Weapons and Armor
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:35 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Weapons and Armor Reply with quote

Here's my opinion on restrictions based on class. It's not reasonable! Now I can understand armors limiting dexterity or speed but to say that wizard in physically incapable of wearing the types of armor fighters wear is ridiculous. Or to say that a mage can carry a staff but can't his fingers around the shaft of a spear is a little silly.

I feel it would be better to restrict such things based on attribute levels then class. This might help balance out higher level players if high level healers, thieves and magic users feel the desire to beef up their str to wear that heavy plate that slows them down, then so be it. It won't make them invincible because their mag attack will suffer from the attrib reassigning. Focus could be encouraged by giving natural proficiencies with objects related with that particular class, but it shouldn't be restricted.

Don't know if this was already cover, planned or whatever. I just figured I'd throw it out there anyways.
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Pre
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think that I've seen a game that restricts certain races to weapons/armors (but I could just not be thinknig hard enough). Most games have strenght or intelligent skills restrictions. I think thats better since every character can have a weapon but it prevents wizards from wanted to build their strength up to use an axe.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Weapons and Armor Reply with quote

DarkHydra wrote:
Now I can understand armors limiting dexterity or speed but to say that wizard in physically incapable of wearing the types of armor fighters wear is ridiculous.


Well let's see, I'm a fighter and you're a wizard. You spend most of your life locked away reading books and studying the arcane arts and improving your mind. I spend my days swinging heavy weapons lifting heavy objects, working on my aim, and improving my body. Now one day we meet. My armor is made of some heavy ass metal weighing more then 100lbs (45kg). It's designed with the fuller body type in mind. You're wearing leather with straps to fit it to your body type.

I can wear your armor because it's not very restricting, however, if you tried to wear mine, you'd quickly realize that it's very bulky, and because you didn't do much to improve your physical conditioning, that you'd have one hell of a time dealing with all that extra weight, and you'd tire out very fast.

Devs don't restrict armor based on class alone, it's based on the fact that magic users use gestures and need quick access to spell components when casting spells. Large heavy bulky armor takes that away from you. Wizards usually aren't allowed to wear the advanced fighter armor, because if they could wear it, there'd be no reason to play a fighter. You'd get the same protection as a fighter and still get to blast away with magic. Restictions like that are done for balancing.

As for wizards not being able to use spears, I agree with that as well. If you don't have the physical strength to impale someone, nor the training to make accurate throws, then a spear is nothing more then a staff with a pointed end.

Basically what I'm saying is you need to spend some real time thinking about why things are the way they are, rather then saying, hey it's not fair you can do this but I can't. You also need to think deeper into the issue. Consider things such as training, skills needed, strength needed, movement needed, and wisdom needed. After you've spent a great deal of time pondering on why a mage can't wear the heavy armors, you'll be able to understand more easily why fighters can't cast a magical protection shield, cast flame bolt, then cast teleport...

If wizards ever get the ability to wear heavy armors and wield weapons that require training and skill, then to be fair, fighters should be given the ability to cast powerfull spells. If that ever does happen, how many times do you think you would complain that fighters shouldn't be able to cast that spell?
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Enquillion
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody says they can't wield them if they have the strength to (which, you pointed out, they likely don't). However, that doesn't mean they could use them well, but they could still wield them. As for the spellcasting issue, there's always arcane spell failure due to heavy armor like in 3rd edition D&D. Or you can just completely disable it (2nd edition).

It makes sense that a fighter would make way better use of most metal gear. It does not make sense that someone of ample strength can't wield them. Now whether or not they do have the strength is up to the player who builds the character, but at least the choice would be there, if yet not viable.

Do I need to be a blacksmith to carry a forge hammer around?
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Stant
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enq, did you see these lines? "As for wizards not being able to use spears, I agree with that as well. If you don't have the physical strength to impale someone, nor the training to make accurate throws, then a spear is nothing more then a staff with a pointed end." By that, I was trying to say they could wield the spear, but they'd lack the ability to use it as a spear, thus it would be treated like a stick with a point on the end, or a staff with a point. They may as well just be using a staff...

Also notice I used a wizard using leather, typically a fighter type armor, in my example for armor sharing. "My armor is made of some heavy ass metal weighing more then 100lbs (45kg). It's designed with the fuller body type in mind. You're wearing leather with straps to fit it to your body type." I agree that they can wear the lighter less restricting armors as I have seen it done countless times, and have done it myself. But I won't stand for wizards and mages to be able to wield the weapons like fighters can, nor will I stand for them being able to use the heavy armors, not unless fighters get access to all the things that make wizards, wizards.
I put in the lines "Wizards usually aren't allowed to wear the advanced fighter armor, because if they could wear it, there'd be no reason to play a fighter. You'd get the same protection as a fighter and still get to blast away with magic. Restictions like that are done for balancing." for a reason.

The basic weapons and armors are basic so that a wide range of people can use them... The more advanced stuff have more/higher restrictions to help stay in the realistic aspect of the game. If a mage wants to spend a hell of a lot of time training strength to wear a heavy armor, so be it, but by the time they've multiclassed enough to be able to wear heavy armor, the others who took a more pureistic approach will have far surpassed them in ability. On top of that specialized equipment/spells would likely be available that offers similar protections that the fighters enjoy, yet are only worn/used by mages and wizards. They will get pissed off that their character sucks badly compared to others of the same level, delete it, start over, and be annoyed that they wasted all that time training. Multiclassing always has its penalties. The worst part is, they'll take out their frustrations on someone else.

Being restrictive on equipment do to ability points gives the appearance of being restrictive by class, even though it isn't. The only things that are restrictive by class are the skills and feats that each person uses. The things that they learn in their training. You honestly can't expect someone who reads about archery in a book to be able to walk outside pick up a bow and arrow and be able to repeatedly shoot at a target a long distance away and hit bull's eye after bull's eye. Just like you can't expect someone who chops wood all day to be able to recite War and Peace word for word.

If you pick a class, you should train in the areas that will get you the most benefits of that class. Should you want to train in an area not common to the class you picked, but it is common to another class... You should have gone the other route. If you don't want to go that route, then you have no need to train those skills, because odds are, you're not going to use them. You just want them to say that you have them...

Back to DarkHydra's post... I have yet to ever play a game that restricted equipment based on class. Akarra didn't restrict by class, and since it's still the basic foundation for Daria, it'll likely work out the same way. Like I said moments ago, games usually restrict equipment by ability points which gives the appearance of being restrictive by class, even though they really aren't... D&D style games restrict proficiency feats and skills by class because it wouldn't make sense for a mage to wield heavy armor, and severely hinder their casting ability... Why take away the one thing you're good at? Thus, they force you to multiclass to gain those feats, and penalize you overall because you obviosly lack the focus to maintain one single discipline.

Um... Yeah... My brain hurts... Moreso now since I realized that we're all saying the same thing, just differently... =E
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stant why won't you stand for a wizard or thief wearing heavy armor? For them to wield it it'll take away significantly from the attributes they need to cast more powerful spells or other thief skills. Therefore they would NOT be all powerful. They would be better protected but they would NEED to be because they CAN'T cast uber powerful spells like they normally would if they had been satisfied with leather and put all points after it into Int (or whatever as magic power). Therefore it's relatively more balanced.

As far as the existance of such games they do exist. Knight Online for instance. It's more common to see this system in the older 2D console RPGs. I felt I should mention it though seeing how the creators are sop adamant about this not being a sequel or clone of WiA. Anyhoo, just an opinion I spose. Cheers. Very Happy
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said I won't stand for it unless fighters got the benefits of using magics... Please read my whole sentance, not just the part you disagree with... Besides a heavy set of platemail would rob them of everything that makes them a wizard. A mage/wizard who spends his or her time in the training hall learning to be a fighter instead of in the classroom should just be a fighter, and not a mage/wizard. What you're asking for is to get you the benefit of fighter armor protection and the benefit of using strong magics... Like I said before, if wizards can wear heavy armors, it's only fair that fighters get to use strong magics. But once that happens, what's the point of having two separate classes since they now basically do the same exact thing?

As for thieves, when did I say anything about thieves??? Oh right, I haven't... =| Now I'm going to because you made it out like I forbid it for a non-magical class... Thieves building up like fighters is what they usually do anyway. They're a physical fighting based class, meaning they don't rely on magic to fight... The reason they don't completely bulk up like a pure fighter is because they need to be quick and silent and agile. They use dexterity over strength. If they wish to wear heavy armors, fine.

Again I'm going to ask you to put some thought behind what you're asking. What's the point of being a magic based character who would rather spend time working on fighter stats rather then strengthening their spells? You may as well just be a fighter and then specialize into something further up the tree that has spell like abilities.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Lorsaelos
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's wrong with having a little mix though? Fighters with some light mage powers, and some mages with light combat skills?

One could theoretically say that the former is how a Paladin-equivalent class can be put together.
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DarkHydra
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crap, really didn't want to turn this into an argument. (sighs and takes a deep breath) Lorsaelos got my point anyways, I have no problem with fighters learning magic if they want to invest the training into using it. It won't rob Warriors of their identity, they will still own wizards in HtH.

You didn't mention anything about thieves but I did in my first post, looks we could all learn to read entire posts, hmm? (raises eyebrows)

What's wrong with a char who medium magic and medium protection? He will not be as powerful as someone with heavy magic and light protection. But he will soak up a couple more hits perhaps then someone who is all power no protection. It's a tradeoff. I don't see how that's being unreasonable. He will still never be as strong in HtH as a warrior his same level and will not be able to wear armors as heavy as a warrior his same level because so much as already been invested into the metaphysical.

It won't rob anyone's identity. After all like Lorsaelos said Paladins have both, but obviously won't be as be at the same level as either a full fledged warrior or a all Int wizard. So it would be like having a Battle mage, or Dark Knight. Some games (The Realm comes to mind) have, or had a class called Adventurer that could was more balanced but would never go toe to toe with either. I don't want the benefit some much as the option.
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Archosseus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarkHydra wrote:
Crap, really didn't want to turn this into an argument. (sighs and takes a deep breath) Lorsaelos got my point anyways, I have no problem with fighters learning magic if they want to invest the training into using it. It won't rob Warriors of their identity, they will still own wizards in HtH.

You didn't mention anything about thieves but I did in my first post, looks we could all learn to read entire posts, hmm? (raises eyebrows)

What's wrong with a char who medium magic and medium protection? He will not be as powerful as someone with heavy magic and light protection. But he will soak up a couple more hits perhaps then someone who is all power no protection. It's a tradeoff. I don't see how that's being unreasonable. He will still never be as strong in HtH as a warrior his same level and will not be able to wear armors as heavy as a warrior his same level because so much as already been invested into the metaphysical.

It won't rob anyone's identity. After all like Lorsaelos said Paladins have both, but obviously won't be as be at the same level as either a full fledged warrior or a all Int wizard. So it would be like having a Battle mage, or Dark Knight. Some games (The Realm comes to mind) have, or had a class called Adventurer that could was more balanced but would never go toe to toe with either. I don't want the benefit some much as the option.

Well you don't really have to make a new class for that, there is another way. Say if there are 4 classes from the beginning to its final state. Now if i'd follow your medium magic, medium armor idea. You would level up 2 ranks in the combat class, and 2 ranks in the magic class. This way, you get the idea its more of a battle mage. Not just some class on the list to choose. So if a mage ever wanted to go for fighting to support his abilities he'd take levels in a combat class and vice versa. You would though, get the muliclassing feeling.

I do agree with Stant though. I really don't see the use in it.
You miss a lot of the later benefits from the higher ranked classes, the powerful tools that keeps them worthwhile. You don't have that as a BattleMage, since everything is average. Which means newbie's moaning "Oh oh, monsters r to powerful, they hit me 4 tons". Then each time such a person says that, someone has to explain why they are to powerful, but in fact the real thing is that he's to weak to stand up to the them. Why would one want that?

Spells are supposed to be performed with your hands, this is why any magic-user, at all, wears flexible clothing (robes, clothing etc.) to loosen everything up. Being a BattleMage requires you to wear armor, wich would disturbe your spells a lot.
Compare it to real life, imagine yourself casting a spell. (not that you could =D)
In order to cast it, you have to make a 360 degrees circle shape with your arms, and you really can't do that with armor on.
*Crack*
"Oops, I can't go further then this."
- Spell failed.
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