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IRC CD - Continued for Topic: Monster AI & Emotions

 
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Kalorian
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Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 300
Location: Uiejonbou, South Korea

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: IRC CD - Continued for Topic: Monster AI & Emotions Reply with quote

Hello all,

For those of you that were unable to attend the Community Discussion on IRC. I have highlighted the main points of this topic and pasted them below. For a full read of the community discussion head over the Archives for the log.

Please continue the discussion for those that missed it put your 2 cents in.

3. Monster AI & Emotions

- have monsters react more like that would in real life. Rabbits always being timid no mater if there are 100 of them. Hippos attacking anything that gets near etc..
- monster fear.
- monster roaming and hunting players through out a region.
- Monsters being able to determine player reactions and being able to use special abilities and know when to use certain abilities to maximum efficiency.

Example.
<Gazeibo> Eg. a magic attack and a physical attack
<Gazeibo> magical attacks may not be used against people with defence against such magic attacks from customised items
<Gazeibo> so a physical attack could be prompted to be used against the player

- emersion in the environemnt with Monster vs Monster combat. Tribe wars etc..
- monsters should be able to ambush and hide.

This discussion was weak as many folks were tired which is understandable after 2+ hours of discussion. I only expect Dev's to be able to handle all that heh. Anyways I hope to see much more discussion and ideas in this topic.

Have at it.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: IRC CD - Continued for Topic: Monster AI & Emotions Reply with quote

Kalorian wrote:

- monster roaming and hunting players through out a region.
- Monsters being able to determine player reactions and being able to use special abilities and know when to use certain abilities to maximum efficiency.
- emersion in the environemnt with Monster vs Monster combat. Tribe wars etc..
- monsters should be able to ambush and hide.


I for one would love to have monsters raoming around. Unfortunately I've only seen monster AI's either only wander back and forth for a few spaces or circle around on predetermined travel paths. I'd love to get away from that and just have them roam free... Unfortunately, I'm not sure how far along programming has come along to accomodate that. Maybe we have a few geniouses who can solve that issue? ;D

As for monsters having the option to evaluate attacks, that would be nice to play against as well, but of course, only against intelligent foes. Randomly decide what attack, physical/magical, then what subtype of attack, ranged/melee or lightning/fire/ect. If it scores less then say 10 points of damage, switch to another, if none score more then 10, then use few types that worked best and so on... Though part of human recognition is remembering what works best, so monsters 'seeing' a bulky fighter running up would make the monster initially react with only magic. If that failed, they'd try some of the things they originally marked off as non-usable. They could also have a scan ability that would let them scan the player's defenses and organise a few attack types accordingly. Anything to cheat a bit in this area to make them more life like without having to program in a fully adaptive AI.

I don't know about you guys, but watching the darklings in Akarra fight, entertained me for hours... Even if they only dropped rusty daggers and apples and carrots, it was entertaining to watch a small group from one side wander into a large group from the other and get pwned... Then watching that damaged group wander into reinforcements and get crushed. I'd laugh and say "You poor bastards should healed first." =D One of the most fun non-PC things I got to witness in that game. Like Kal said in the chat, it should be held to lesser species fighting for position in a forest or plains or something, not the sentient species. Those that have developed societies would realise that territory boundries don't and shouldn't shift on an hourly basis. They would even come to agree on borders and denote it with signage or fencing... Which could be interesting in Daria should we end up with something like the Great Wall of China to keep the Mongols out. =] One of the ancient wonders of Daria... The Great Wall of Eponick. It keeps the wookie dev safe from me and Origon... >=D

Monster hiding would have to be a must in order to justify the addition of perceptions discussed in the other part of the CD... Again though, only cooperative agressive creatures would hide and wait for ambush. Agressive alone wouldn't necessitate hiding since it takes a higher brain function to act in a cooperative manner and set up an ambush. A rabbit has no reason to hide unless it was scared. If rabbits scattered and went to bushed to hide, this would allow less experienced players to catch up and get in another hit or two before the rabbit scampers off to another location.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Archosseus
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree on mostly everything Stant said.

I think it would make the game a bit more exciting and challenging if the monsters were roaming or wandering. Not just wait around somewhere and give you the impression: "I'm waiting for you to kill me!". A random area they could walk would already give them a bit more life. Them wandering around gives a nice feeling.

I too enjoyed looking at the darklings, I actually felt they were a tick smarter then the other monsters, why I do not know though.
They had a group and they gave me the impression they were really working together. I liked to fight those kind of monsters, working together, each monster with it's own class. Tizfolk, Darklings, Skeletons, Salamite and those arachnid-like monsters in the "Tower"'s basement (their name shoots my mind).

And I mostly agree on the part that only the "higher-status" monsters should avoid and be smarter. To give them a more superior impression.

Only agile monsters should be able to chase you off. I can't imagine a huge heavy ogre keeping up with a player, so he does not even try to chase the player as he sees the player would outrun him anyway.

I'd like to see monsters hide. A shady creature, a shy creature. They hide behind a tree, you think it's innocent and walk past it and it attacks you. You shoot an obstical at them and they jump behind a rock, tree or any object.

The monsters shouldn't give up easily but they shouldn't chase players into towns, it can get those who die their moods really steamed up. The monster should stop as soon as it takes it's first step into the town area. Some towns would be fortified with walls and guard towers to defend off those monsters.
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Stant
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Archosseus wrote:
The monsters shouldn't give up easily but they shouldn't chase players into towns, it can get those who die their moods really steamed up. The monster should stop as soon as it takes it's first step into the town area. Some towns would be fortified with walls and guard towers to defend off those monsters.


reguarding this I do believe I stated in the chat that after some short amount of time creatures would learn boundaries on where they can and can't go. Kal cringed at the 'learn' word. ;Þ Anyways. As I said, it would be simple to program in a simple boundary where monsters break off attacks and leave you alone using the excuse that they learned a long time ago that if they got closer, they'd be killed.

Ex: A town sitting in the middle of a forest. Naturally a clearing has been made around the town so that you have to actually step out of the trees and be seen before you get close to the town. Animals, especially the more agressive ones would learn after some time that they get attacked and killed if they wander past the trees. Simple boundary programed in at the edge of the trees would tell most monsters to break off and move along. Now then there's always the case of the enraged, or super agressive creature that would ignore these boundaries and chase your ass into that town no matter what the risk because all they want is your bloody carcas lying dead staining the ground. =D I call these the fun monsters.
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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Archosseus
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stant wrote:

reguarding this I do believe I stated in the chat that after some short amount of time creatures would learn boundaries on where they can and can't go. Kal cringed at the 'learn' word. ;Þ Anyways. As I said, it would be simple to program in a simple boundary where monsters break off attacks and leave you alone using the excuse that they learned a long time ago that if they got closer, they'd be killed.

Ex: A town sitting in the middle of a forest. Naturally a clearing has been made around the town so that you have to actually step out of the trees and be seen before you get close to the town. Animals, especially the more agressive ones would learn after some time that they get attacked and killed if they wander past the trees. Simple boundary programed in at the edge of the trees would tell most monsters to break off and move along. Now then there's always the case of the enraged, or super agressive creature that would ignore these boundaries and chase your ass into that town no matter what the risk because all they want is your bloody carcas lying dead staining the ground. =D I call these the fun monsters.
That would make a good way of dealing with it.
The more sneaky and hiding creatures could go and follow the player but run behind objects to get close, I think that would be rather difficult though (not that I'm the one to determine that).

On to another point that came to my mind. I think the monsters should communicate a bit more with each other. Always when I fought a group of monsters they just went where they were supposed to go, without the group chief or leader ordering anything. For example something like this:

You put a group leader in every "group" of monsters out there. Make it a bit stronger so they and the player knows who is the leader.
As soon as you approach the group's territory, the leader gives out a taunt.

Like a group of darklings. There are 2 Darkling Archers, 2 Darkling Warriors and 1 Darkling Chief. You enter their territory and the chief shouts: "Attack!!!!". Each creature says something different of course, but you must get the impression it tells them to attack you.
Creatures that can't speak common language say something in their own language. As simple as that.


as said, the monsters have different attitudes and different ways of dealing with the player. You could set these into types, to make a lot less work of it then doing it with every creature type.
Types such as:

Cowardly: it runs away from you
Agressive: Follows you till your dead or till it is dead
Calm: It stays at it's spot, handy for wizard, shaman, sorcerer or any magical casting monster
Peaceful: Doesn't attack you (I think this is a must, there were no peaceful creatures in WiA to my despite)
Normal Hostile: Acts normal, when it sees you it runs up to you and gives up at a certain point when it doesn't have enough stamina
Sly: Hides from you and as soon as you approach it's territory it swiftly runs upto you

And things like that.


Regarding "boundaries", what I think would be an effective way to apply them is the following:

Each type of monster (or race) has it's own unique color. I'm not saying blue, red or simple colors like that but digit colors. You would be allowed to set up an area that's unrestricted to the monsters in the Editor used for the game. I'm talking about a simple amount of squares you could *paint* with the monster's color that doesn't allow it to walk in. This way you could have different "boundaries" for different monsters. One monster could go in and the other couldn't. I choose a color because there are a lot of choises, enough for every monster in the game I'm sure. Also, there of course is the possibility to make an all-monster boundary.
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Origon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bunnies only attacked you after you hit them....are you calling that non-peaceful ? *whips a bunny at Archosseus* take THAT ! but yea....there werent many of those
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Stant
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good yellow bunnies... =]
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This change isn't because of Kal's request to change it, it's to tell the community that I'm pissed at him because he fucked me over by not sticking up for me when he should have, instead he blasted me. I have no problem with Daria or any of it's other staff. It was changed in response to his lies about fixing it, which he did NOT do.
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