Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Location: Uiejonbou, South Korea
|Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject: March 5th, 2005 | IRC CD | Player/Monster Emotions
(Kalorian) Alright folks. Welcome to the First "Planned
(Kalorian) err "Planned" Community Discussion
(Kalorian) gotta love the laptop mini keyboard
(Kalorian) Today we will be discussing 4 topics
(Kalorian) the first of which is Perceptions.. based on a player's character being able to see, smell, hear and track. Discussing the complexity issues of such feature as well as making it fair to use and balanced.
(Kalorian) The others will be announced as we go. Origon will be explaining how to use his script which makes my life and your life a little easier during these discussions
(Kalorian) and saves everyone time.
(Kalorian) /notice #Daria Community Discussion has started
(Origon) as kal said, or perhaps didnt, the script is a queue system
(Origon) to get in line in the queue, query kalorian with !floor
(Origon) dont bother spamming it since theres protections all around ;p
(Origon) when the queue reaches you, you get to talk - like the impatient chybi here
(Origon) once you've said your point - just do !done so the queue can move on
(Origon) i think....thats it
(Chybi) Ok, my main Idea with perceptions, is that if monsters don't have a way of perceiving where you are in the dark
(Kalorian) Thank you Origon.
(Chybi) They shouldn't be able to attack you
(Kalorian) but there is never complete darkness.
(Kalorian) or is there?
(Chybi) Also maybe Monsters running away from the light of your torch in the dark
(Kalorian) ok. any other initial thoughts?
(Chybi) Well based on the way Akarra was (Yes I know Daria s a whole new thing) there was complete darkness and during that time monsters could attack us but we coudln't do anything until we had light
(Chybi) Well I think every monster should have a primary sense it uses to track foes such as some use sight and others usse hearing,smell
(Kalorian) so you think monsters should hunt players?
(Kalorian) not just players hunting monsters?
(Chybi) And if you could somehow "neutralise" that sense by skills or items you should be able to sneak up on them
(Chybi) Some should be hunters and some should be huntees
(Chybi) Sr phone
(Kalorian) chybi say !done plez
(Kalorian) to make room for next then
(Enquillion) I fear that if perception skills are skills you have to "invest in" they become all-or-nothing skills, as you will not want to hamper your actual combat potential by investing points in avoiding ambushes, and so on, and so on. This is PvP, of course...
(Enquillion) just like in WoW you don't pick talents that could make PvE life easier if you play on a PvP server
(Kalorian) ok well
(Kalorian) How I think of perceptions is that certain races are better at certain things
(Kalorian) then based on your class and other skills you develop would enhance certain senses
(Enquillion) but would this come at the cost of direct combat potential?
(Kalorian) thats up for debate. I don't think any race/class combination would be able to have 20/20 eyesight and 20/20 smelling
(Kalorian) I would just think your characters progression through classes and such
(Kalorian) would indirectly effect your natural senses
(Enquillion) so I don't ahve to give up some of my magic leetness to be able to spot a rogue?
(Kalorian) wouldn't you have spells that could track humanoids and such based on the type of school of magic you go to?
(Enquillion) sure, sounds good, but then it's getting around it
(Kalorian) I don't think mages would have as strong perceptions
(Kalorian) compared to other classes
(Enquillion) that was just an example.. what I meant was that I could have ridiculously sad perception skills
(Kalorian) Folks that are just joining we are having a COmmunity Discussion. Please contact Origon for instructions
(Enquillion) but always hang out with a hunter who could see Origon in a pile of spaghetti
(Kalorian) that would be the benefits of fellowships
(Enquillion) then I'm done, just want to inform the channel of what a dirty whore you are
(thewreck) note: perceptive skills dont neccesarily have to hamper your fighting skill. It wouldnt have to be all about just spotting. Imagine beeing able to quickly percieve a dagger flying towards you, or mayby beeing able to note weakspots in enemies to make you magic more effective.
(Enquillion) [19:10:22] <Enquillion> !sex
(Enquillion) [19:10:22] <Kalorian> Added to queue as: 782
(Origon) i feel that such skills should be either obtained through long and rigorous training (made easier if its your races/classes nature) or acquired through some hard quest, but some should be natural talents
(Kalorian) hmm the pause didn't work origon
(Kalorian) thewreck - repeat please
(Kalorian) note: perceptive skills dont neccesarily have to hamper your fighting skill. It wouldnt have to be all about just spotting. Imagine beeing able to quickly percieve a dagger flying towards you, or mayby beeing able to note weakspots in enemies to make you magic more effective.
(Kalorian) is what thewreck wrote.
(Kalorian) Origon - but no mater how hard I train my eyesight it in general gets worse with age
(Kalorian) so I don't see how training my eye sight to be good would work
(Origon) true, but i didnt mean actually enhancing the ability that way
(Origon) i meant training as in learning to spot certain things
(Origon) that can still be done
(Origon) and for the eyesight to get worse with age...wouldnt there need to be an 'age' system in daria ?
(Origon) true, for some classes/races it'll come much easier, say an elf vs a dwarf in hearing
(Kalorian) well I wasn't saying thats how it would be
(Kalorian) I was saying realistically
(Origon) true, so place that skill cap on different 'levels' for specific races/classes
(Origon) such as an elf is able to train his ears to pick up a needle falling in a forest
(Origon) while a dwarf, after training will struggle to hear a bear roaring right behind him
(Kalorian) well I can't explain the system I am working up to be considered for daria but their would be various caps at points in your characters progression
(Chybi) Ori said alot of the things I wanted to say but I still have a few things
(Kalorian) /me Folks: Current discussion is on Perceptions. Hearing, Seeing, Tracking and Smelling things in the game environment. Discussing how it should be handled and controled. Jump in if you have anything to say you will be added to the queue.
(Chybi) Enq was worried about having to put skill points into his perception, but I think a better system is one where perceptions go up passively like Kal suggested rather than with a "manual" player input
(Kalorian) I think the only way to handle those sort of abilities are through passive means
(Lorsaelos) I missed a lot, but eh. Expanding on what Chybi said, I think there should be a passive element to skills of perception, etc., which would be the main leveling of these skills. However, I think one should be able to add points in every X levels or so, for less randomness.
(Lorsaelos) In case one skill or another isn't going as planned, etc.
(Lorsaelos) Uh, that's it for now till I think of something else.
(Kalorian) but why as humans don't really control our perceptions do we?
(Kalorian) why = we
(Kalorian) They develop or degrade based on things that happen in our life
(Kalorian) or what we do in life
(Origon) true, but its also possible to hone your skills
(Origon) even as humans
(Origon) i bet some guy that spend his entire life training and meditating on some mountain can see / hear much better then we can
(Origon) so even within a race/class, there should be different levels of such perception achievable
(Kalorian) so lets say a race originates from a mountainous area
(Kalorian) you are saying it should naturally have its perceptions work better in that said environment?
(Origon) they should have better....something
(Kalorian) compared to being in a swamp?
(Origon) swamp would have better eyesight id think
(Kalorian) should this be limited to types of areas
(Origon) the regions shouldnt determine pluses, but also minuses
(Kalorian) or possibly regions
(Origon) regions, types of areas, not sure
(Kalorian) hehe noted.
(Origon) but for example, while a forest race has better eyesight then a mountin one
(Origon) they have less endurance for example
(Origon) and thats it for me.
(Stant) It's actually quite easy to train your perceptions. From experience, I can now stand in front of someone and know they are playing with something behind their back because of the muscle movement in their forearm. Most people don't see that and that comes from training.
(Stant) You can train yourself to recognise certain things, and effectively cheat the losses you get from age.
(Kalorian) But going into such details we need to be careful as the game is going to have a lot of complex features already it could be daunting for a new person that joins the world to try and recognize all these abilities and such
(Kalorian) I understand what your saying
(Kalorian) and noted.
(Kalorian) noted the ability to be able 'limitly' train perceptions
(Stant) ok. =]
(Lorsaelos) As Stant stated, hunters train their targetting skills. They just don't trust an innate ability to aim. For a personal example, I have some degree of speed anf flexability naturally, but since I train Taekwondo, I can go beyond that. Others who have disadvantages in this area can overcome them as well.
(Lorsaelos) I know in a fencing class I once took, there was this really old fellow, you could count the hairs on his head.
(Lorsaelos) And when I say fencing, I mean sword fighting.
(Lorsaelos) He could whoop all us young whippersnappers.
(Lorsaelos) He was -fast-.
(Lorsaelos) So... yeah.
(Kalorian) ok more proof to being able to 'limitedly' adjust your perceptions
(Kalorian) I don't want players to spend 2 weeks on getting 20/20 eyesight
(Kalorian) /unset accept%
(Lorsaelos) No, but something in the range of every X levels just a small adjustment point would be good.
(Kalorian) /unset %accept
(Kalorian) Opening thoughts on Player Emotion?
(Chybi) I'll try something here but not exactly sure how well it's going to sound
(Kalorian) hehe its ok.
(Kalorian) go for it.
(Chybi) For Fear I agree with what You just said, people woulod mostly get scarred by size first
(Chybi) But if it's a fable creature (told in many stories and cush) then it's power would come into account
(Kalorian) I see.
(Chybi) Of course being in a group would bring down your level of fear alot since you can relly on other for support
(Chybi) I have an Idea that could maybe work:
(Chybi) You have a bar that goes from -100 to 100
(Chybi) In the range of -25 to 25 you are considered normal
(Chybi) 0 being the default state
(Chybi) when you go into the negatifs you are scarred and when you go into the positives you are confident
(Kalorian) I like that from a programmers perspective
(Kalorian) but wouldn't want numbers for players to see
(Kalorian) perhaps levels
(Kalorian) You are scared
(Kalorian) really scared
(Kalorian) extremely scared
(Chybi) Of course confidence in winning a fight is good, but over confidence can be just as deadly as being scared
(Kalorian) I like that
(Chybi) Well I was thinking of a bar that goes up and down in combat depending on what is happening
(Kalorian) ok I will make note of it
(Chybi) For example Monster is 3 times your size so the bar goes down a certain number
(Chybi) Monster is a known beast so your bar goes down yet again. you are now in the scared part of the bar and start sufering penalties
(Kalorian) <Stant> Just one question on that, would it be a general bar relating to all things, or would it be specific to each monster type, each NPC guard, each player, ect.?
(Chybi) Monster hits you for an amazing number of damaging sending your bar all the way down and you are now scared to death and just run away automatically
(Chybi) I think the way a monster affects you should be unique to each monster and character combination depending on each's power
(Chybi) On the other side of the bar, you attack a small monster that is known to be weak
(Chybi) So your bar goes into confidence mode giving you bonuses for the fight
(Kalorian) ok noted. some good ideas
(Chybi) The monster attacks you but you hardly suffer any dmg so you gain more confidence, you attack it and cause lot's of dmg
(Chybi) But now you are overconfident which gives you negative effects rather than the positive ones of being in a party
(Chybi) and that is about it
(Kalorian) like it
(Origon) basically, what chiby said, but not every 'largel' monster would bring fear. imagine a 20 foot tall...cuddly bunny. That would merely catch you by surprise
(Origon) my idea was to have several bars from 0-100
(Origon) things like fear, confidence, and all of those
(Origon) seeing a huge griffin would increase fear for example
(Origon) while seeing a djini appear right in front of you and start casting would raise fear AND surprise
(Origon) thus eliminating the need for a monster/sprcific bar, but allowing for monsters to have individual effects
(Kalorian) that is more managable
(Origon) but seeing a cute fluffy bunny and 1hitting it would lower fear and raise confidence
(Origon) of course, if you're in a team, confidence gets lowered by 'less' with each huge monster thing
(Origon) and fear doesnt lwoer as much either
(Origon) but if someone dies on the same screen as you for example, fear increases
(Origon) and if the pker remains on screen, you'll be more likely to get afraid of everything
(Origon) i think thats it for me ;p
(Kalorian) So you could be boosted up from past battles and all the sudden a gryphon flys in and attacks you -100 Confidence/Fear bar.. and you were at 80 confidence.. so now you are -20 somewhat scared. Whats to prevent players from committing genocide to a certain monster type before fighting a boss?
(Origon) whats to say it SHOULD be prevented
(Origon) lets use real life examples
(Kalorian) I am worried about abuse
(Kalorian) don't mind it happening
(Origon) i train all day somewhere, im unafraid of that
(Kalorian) but the abuse part is what I'm worried about
(Origon) so lower level monsters raise/lower it by lots less
(Kalorian) perhaps make the bonuses not so great
(Kalorian) but enough that helps
(Origon) if they're lower then you by "so and so" levels
(Origon) like you're lvl 1 - a lvl 1 bunny is killed easily
(Origon) so your bar goes down a lot
(Origon) while if 50, barely noticeable
(Kalorian) <Lorsaelos> If I killed 200 bunnies, I would not instantly be confident enough to take on, say, a grizzly bear.
(Origon) meaning high lvl people will take a long time to get confident before a boss
(Origon) so make the bonuses different depending on monster level
(Origon) and depending on the DIFFERENCE between player and monster level
(Kalorian) 200 bunnies killed gives you 30 confidence.. you stumble across a grizzly bear takes away 50 confidence
(Kalorian) you are now -20 scared
(Kalorian) but your past successes battle give you SOME advantage
(Origon) actually, i meant the bars from 0 - 100 ;p
(Kalorian) to taking on that grizzly
(Origon) 100 - fully scared
(Origon) 0 - none at all
(Kalorian) I like the -100 to 100 bar better
(Kalorian) easier to monitor
(Origon) but -100 --> 100 can still apply
(Origon) either way it'll work
(Origon) and i think thats it from me for now
(Kalorian) keep the ideas coming
(Kalorian) Dawn of Daria will allow insane characters (that was for Lorsaelos)
(Kalorian) Hello Saven,
(Kalorian) /me pokes Saven
(Kalorian) just PMed him. He might be afk or a slow typer give him a few more minutes
(Kalorian) hmm alrighty then
(Kalorian) delaque currently having a Community Discussion
(Lorsaelos) If we take insanity into account, one's willingness to face a grizzly bear vs. a bunny may actually work.
(Lorsaelos) You may squash ten thousand flies, stomp on five million ants, but you'll stop short of approaching a grizzly, or at least be very cautious about it.
(Lorsaelos) This is where perception of a beast that is bigger than you, meaner than you, etc., can come into play.
(Kalorian) Lorsaelos consider this
(Kalorian) I've killed 200 bunnies
(Lorsaelos) Even if you feel like you can conquer the world after your ant genocide, you will SEE the bear, and you will HEAR its growl.
(Kalorian) it built my confidence to 40
(Kalorian) but all the sudden a grizzly bear surpise attacks me
(Kalorian) lowers my confidence by 50
(Kalorian) -10 I am scared
(Lorsaelos) And your confidence will drop more than those ants being killed helped you.
(Kalorian) but I am still somewhat syked from my last victories
(Kalorian) I think its debatable
(Kalorian) yes ants are nothing but what if they were half the size of that bar
(Lorsaelos) Assuming you are sane, you aren't psyched from killing ants enough to kill a bear.
(Lorsaelos) Unless you are under some perception-changing/inducing drug/potion.
(Lorsaelos) Again, that's why I said perception of size.
(Lorsaelos) You SEE the size of the creature compared to you.
(Kalorian) ok but what if you know from past experience that this little bunny named Mr. Styles can cause a lot of damage and is faster than you
(Kalorian) shouldn't this instill as much fear as a dumb huge ogre?
(Lorsaelos) your size < mob size = -10 to your confidence
(Lorsaelos) Each mob should have a template of its own stats, not just being a random killing object.
(Lorsaelos) let me make an example
(Lorsaelos) I come within hearing range of a growl
(Lorsaelos) I am now on alert
(Lorsaelos) I focus on the distance where it came from
(Lorsaelos) I see an object
(Lorsaelos) I approach
(Lorsaelos) I am within seeing distance
(Lorsaelos) I see the bear now
(Lorsaelos) when I HEARD it, my confidence was affected, depending on my innate gutsiness
(Lorsaelos) when I SAW it, similar happened.
(Lorsaelos) Now, prepped for battle, I attack, kill, whatever.
(Kalorian) hmm I see. I don't fully agree but understand what your saying
(Lorsaelos) But before that, its stats were compared to mine each time something happened
(Lorsaelos) its growl may not scare me as much as its size compared to my size
(Kalorian) so monster abilities could scare a person more than its presence. noted.
(Lorsaelos) so you can have a large bear that scares me, or a large bunny that I may underestimate because while it has a size factor, it has a "non-scary looking" factor that is negative.
(Lorsaelos) so it counters size.
(Kalorian) do we have a learning factor?
(Kalorian) you face the cute wabbit Mr. Styles and he whoops ya up
(Kalorian) you come back to face him again.. you recognize from your past experiences that this no average bunny
(Kalorian) shouldn't that instill fear
(Kalorian) regardless if its 7 inches tall?
(Kalorian) (this is a boxing bunny btw)
(Lorsaelos) Good question. You may be less scared the next time you fight, or maybe you are more scared. But you are more caution and learned his attacks, and may block them easier.
(Lorsaelos) This could apply to any monster, of course.
(Kalorian) for simplicity I would think we would have to keep this to monster families or just named monsters
(Kalorian) would be too much to track serverside and recieve client side
(Kalorian) hate to cut ya off Lorsaelos but there are like 3-4 in line waiting for some input
(Kalorian) feel free to bump yourself back in
(Kalorian) but want to give others sometime.
(Lorsaelos) I think Chybi can answer this.
(Kalorian) very good input.
(Chybi) Ok, Kal you mentionned stuff about people boosting themselves up before attacking a boss monster
(Chybi) But normally your fear and confidence would leave you after awhile so Maybe you boosted your confidence to 50 and then decided to go after the boss
(Chybi) But by the time you get there you are now at only 25 confidence
(Kalorian) I like it.
(Chybi) Also, this may sound cliché But let's say you are walking down a hall towards where the boss is, you know it's a great creature of legend, the sounds of you and your party are echoing down the hall, the tension in the air is palpable
(Chybi) Shouldn't that lower your confidence as you get closer to the creature
(Kalorian) thinking of some of the opposites of emotions Fear - Confidence || Surprised - Prepared || Sadness (turns into vengence?) - Vengence/Revenge || (just some things to think about)
(Kalorian) Yes I agree as well.
(Kalorian) but not ALL of it
(Kalorian) there should be still some confidence about your past victories
(Chybi) Maybe some places in the world should have a bonus/malus to confidence
(Kalorian) it doesn't mean you are prepared to fight the boss
(Chybi) Like being stuck in the forest at night with no torch/campfire can sometimes get pretty scrary if you aren't used to the sounds and etc
(Kalorian) Agreed and noted. the trick with that is implementing
(Kalorian) more likely to implement objects
(Kalorian) than locations
(Chybi) Ya, I know implenting it is going to be very hard
(Kalorian) thats our job.
(Chybi) As for what you said about facing a creature/type of creature multiple times
(Chybi) I think first time you face a creature, you suffer full effects and if you win next time you suffer 75% of effects (cumulative per time you faced creature/type) and if you loose it goes to 125% next time you face (cumulative per time also)
(Kalorian) but you gotta understand if we have 200 unique creature types in the world of Daria
(Kalorian) the server has to track 200 creature experiences for each player
(Kalorian) times that by 100 characters in game
(Kalorian) 20,000 tracks
(Kalorian) for one feature alone
(Kalorian) not very feasible unless you guys want to be paying 10$ a month for this game heh
(Chybi) Ya I know or you could do like you said and use it only with certain selected creatures
(Kalorian) yep. Thats what I noted.
(Chybi) Anyways, that is about it
(Dormeydo) okey, fear isn't nessarily bad
(Kalorian) Lets try to have comments typed out and ready to speed up the process. Its great you guys have a lot to say but have some of your initial comments ready to go.
(Kalorian) I should've said that at the start.
(Kalorian) sorry Dormey go on.
(Dormeydo) when you're scared get lots of adrenaline in you're blood, adrenaline makes you stronger and more edureable
(Kalorian) Agreed. We talked about being 100 confident is not good makes you over confident
(Dormeydo) you can never run as fast as you do if you're chased by something that you think will kill you
(Kalorian) being -100 Scared would possibly add to your desperation in the battle
(Kalorian) like it and noted.
(Dormeydo) and weight lifters sniff things to get adrenaline
(Dormeydo) to make them a bit stronger
(Kalorian) hmm I didn't know that.
(Kalorian) I don't want to stay Darian drug dealers though -.-
(Kalorian) stay = see
(Dormeydo) I like that fear - confidence bar better then two separate
(Kalorian) <Lorsaelos> [14:38:44] <Dormeydo> you can never run as fast as you do if you're chased by something that you think will kill you
(Kalorian) <Lorsaelos> I can see all the lvl1 newbs running from the bunnies now...
(Kalorian) anything else?
(Dormeydo) can i add something to the previous topic?
(Kalorian) um quickly sure.
(Kalorian) I will make a note of it if we haven't already
(Dormeydo) when you hear something there could be like circles in a colour
(Dormeydo) like when you drop a stone in the sea
(Kalorian) Dormeydo - that was discussed as possible higher level of perception
(Kalorian) having each perception with a general text/circle color
(Dormeydo) you can se where the sound come from that way
(Dormeydo) yeah anyway, i'm done
(Enquillion) Kal, refer to PM
(Stant) Well, you know what Bud would say about all of this fear stuff... "<Bud> If I can't just attack and kill any monster I see, then I'm gonna leave and not come back." Just kind of wondering how the hack-n-slashers will take to this since none of them seem to be present to speak about it. ;P
(Kalorian) they will be in a 'what the hell is this..' world of confusion
(Kalorian) <Enquillion> uh, once again the point was brought up while I was waiting. Anyway, I had some ideas about confidence shocks which have been glanced upon earlier; a monster seems frickin easy (due to experience of similar-looking ones), but then does something (like cause a lot of dmg at once) that scares the shit out of you, and even if your confidence remains positive, the -50 drop would make you run in fear.
(Kalorian) <Enquillion> conversely, if a monster you dread "by default" proves to not be as difficult as you feared, you could gain a great morale boost which would perhaps make you immune to its fear spells that would "by default" make you run
(Kalorian) <Enquillion> also I thought of arrogance that would make you less susceptible to confidence changes, just an idea
(Kalorian) <Enquillion> done
(Kalorian) err might flood out.
(Stant) I'm just saying, that's going to be a large part of the community that is affected and well, not that I'd mind losing them, but sometimes it's good to have them around as bait or sacrificial lambs...
(Kalorian) but how does this limit the hack and slash?
(Kalorian) if they fight things around their level
(Kalorian) they don't have much to worry about
(Stant) but they don't...
(Kalorian) but going up against higher monsters would
(Stant) they go after everything and anything.
(Kalorian) then they will learn to adjust to such a system if we use it or fight within a group to avoid the 'fear' emotion
(Kalorian) we are going for originality not another Diablo II
(Kalorian) but agree it would need to be monitored
(Stant) yes yes, but I'm dying to hear their perspective... Shame none are hear. =D
(Kalorian) all the same as we need to monotiro and balance average gamers with elite gamers
(JelloCube27) [14:49:10] * Kalorian
(JelloCube27) whole emotion thing
(JelloCube27) i think is a bad idea
(JelloCube27) because it would just be fustrating to limit the player through numbers they can barely control
(Kalorian) A devils advocate coming to stir the pot. Should get interesting
(JelloCube27) if you want to strike emotion into the player, there are much better ways to do it
(Kalorian) enlighten us with an example
(JelloCube27) well not all players will be able to experience it
(Kalorian) what determines which players experience it?
(JelloCube27) their natural personalities
(JelloCube27) just like all in game characters would have different emotion sets
(Kalorian) I think any being that moves has emotions
(Kalorian) no mater what the personality of the person is
(JelloCube27) though not all players are going to going to go that deep into the game
(Kalorian) then based on early race/class selection it would determine a general 'average' point where you remain
(Kalorian) 20 confidence.. and -10 prepared
(Kalorian) err -10 surprise effect
(Kalorian) they don't have to go that deep in the game
(Kalorian) the system is automated based on how the play
(Kalorian) I understand your concerns though
(Kalorian) and I agree with them somewhat
(JelloCube27) well I had an idea
(JelloCube27) we shouldn't modify the player
(JelloCube27) the character
(JelloCube27) to fit what the system thinks about the world
(Kalorian) but you gotta understand we are going for originality trying to do things other games never dare attempt because of balancing and other reasons
(JelloCube27) hear me out
(JelloCube27) if a player is a afraid of bears
(JelloCube27) then why not spawn more bears when he is near
(JelloCube27) instead of giving him -5 against bears
(Kalorian) the complexity of having the server do checks on each character in a region
(Kalorian) for their fears out of 200 monsters
(Kalorian) 200 monsters x 100 characters
(Kalorian) 20,000 tracks for a simple feature
(Kalorian) we discussed a system where players would learn each monster and that it would be too complicated
(Kalorian) especially for the server bandwidth we can afford for this game being free to the community
(Kalorian) if you guys wanted to dish out 10$ a month or something why might be able to do 200 tracks per character
(JelloCube27) then I still stand by
(Kalorian) but I doubt you would see the game anytime before 2007
(Kalorian) trying to code that complexity.
(Kalorian) and implement it.
(JelloCube27) What, we can wait
(JelloCube27) well, don't go too deep into the numbers
(JelloCube27) or I'll yell at you
(Kalorian) I would rather see the game released with a basic starting point for some of these complex features.. and then do point releases and adjust and expand them.
(Kalorian) its *cough* !done
(JelloCube27) shut up.
(Lorsaelos) Yeah, that's something I wanted to address earlier, what Stant said, and Jello expanded on. That's the key balance issue. Action/twitch game versus RPGish elements. In the Daria RP games I hosted, I don't use the D&D "system" but I would use rolls to determine whether one survives an attack, sees what's coming, is surprised by it, etc.
(Lorsaelos) In many MMORPGS, there are RPG elements, but it still remains by and large an action game, as the only fear you feel for attacking a monster is your own, for fear of losing items and experience if you die fighting it.
(Lorsaelos) In RP games where there isn't a very limiting system, like my own, players consider these factors themselves also, and plan whether they think they can do it. They may die, and either stay dead or are dragged to the Techno-Chamber of Resurrection or some such.
(Lorsaelos) The difference is, and I dare to say in all MMORPGs, there are no "save rolls" for surprise, etc. as their are in RP type games.
(Lorsaelos) Though this may be off-topic, I've been meaning to address this before but didn't get a chance, or forgot: We, or rather the game devs, MUST know who they are catering the game to. What game is this to be? RPG? Action? A blend of both?
(Kalorian) now that was good lol
(Kalorian) trying to catch up
(Stant) A bit about what jello said, not every player plays with their own personal feelings...
(Stant) in fact most don't. What might scare me in real live, has no effect on my gaming style.
(Kalorian) same.. except I don't like big furry spiders.. I get the creeps fighting those things in certain games
(Kalorian) hate fighting the WoW spiders.
(Kalorian) hmm I think I need to install the poll script
(Kalorian) continue Stant
(Stant) A bear in a game, I'd be like, whatever, attack kill or die... In real life, I'm saying damn, run away in zig zag pattern so it can't keep up...
(Stant) that's it...
(Kalorian) one moment folks
(Kalorian) a small poll to determine whats next
(Kalorian) one sec.
(Kalorian) /mass voice
(Kalorian) vote now.
(Lorsaelos) 2 1/2
(aiRWaLKRe) lloks like 2 to me
(JelloCube27) we have to do 1
(Kalorian) ok folks a short intermission
(Kalorian) 5 minutes
(Stant) we will, just 2 is next
(JelloCube27) it is evident
(Kalorian) of free talk
(JelloCube27) noone wants player emotions
(FangM`Zrael) hell no
(aiRWaLKRe) emotes are cool though
(Kalorian) jello - most of the folks here seem in support of it
(Gazeibo) I don't
(Kalorian) at least the ones that spoke
(Lorsaelos) Didn't we just talk about player emotions?
(JelloCube27) let's have a vote!
(Lorsaelos) And I'm sure I was late for the AI decision?
(FangM`Zrael) on what`? ;:E
(Kalorian) in combat Fang
(Kalorian) Lorsaelos - in intermisison about to discuss monsters
(FangM`Zrael) player emotions?
(FangM`Zrael) Kalorian let me summarize this whole thing in this way
(Lorsaelos) Let me explain something before we move on too much more, just something to keep in mind.
(FangM`Zrael) it's not a simulation
(JelloCube27) thank you, Fang
(Lorsaelos) Do we want another MMORPG? Diablo or Rangarok Online, for example?
(Kalorian) thats my point
(Lorsaelos) Or do we want to move toward more RP-ish game, where some things are determined?
(Kalorian) /me NOTE FOR LOGS THIS IS INTERMISSION ********************* REMOVE
(FangM`Zrael) we want a game that supports player RP
(Lorsaelos) Or whatever.
(Kalorian) I agree with Lorsaelos
(Kalorian) the purpose of Daria is to be original
(Kalorian) provide more dynamic gameplay
(Gazeibo) I think a game which can inarguably appeal to the mix of the 2 groups is great
(Kalorian) and less hack and slash of a world
(Lorsaelos) If we don't have a destination in mind, we will muddle through development.
(Gazeibo) an element of hack and slash will still need to be retained
(Kalorian) and making it so the player emotions do not effect the player too terribly is ok
(Kalorian) I agree Gazeibo - but not the main focus of play
(Lorsaelos) Stant, you've played Panumbra.
(Nazzy) take out the grindin xp bit :p
(Gazeibo) especially in large combat, if one was to have a huge reduction in fear without noticing
(Gazeibo) thatd be deadly
(Lorsaelos) Arguably, you can say it appealled the the hack-n-slashers as well as RPers.
(Kalorian) you would have 2-3 bars that would be able to be monitored gazeibo
(Kalorian) they would change based on your success in battle and failures
(Kalorian) running from a battle
(Lorsaelos) I'm not sure if I can pinpoint it, but what do you think affected that the most?
(FangM`Zrael) and in combat there's adrenaline and all the other nifty things you'd have to think about
(Kalorian) we discussed that Fang
(Lorsaelos) The real-time-ness of combat is all I can think of.
(Kalorian) -100 would be complete fear increasing adrenaline which would effect strength + endurance
(Stant) Lors - Community and direct contact with Brian the whole time. ;P
(Kalorian) while 100 Confidence would make you a little less off guard
(FangM`Zrael) I'm sleepy
(FangM`Zrael) falling appart
(Kalorian) ok folks get your final spurts out before we continue
(Lorsaelos) Stant: Err I mean the action appeal.
(Kalorian) Ok the next topic is monster AI and Emotions
(Kalorian) consider the samethings we discussed for players
(Kalorian) and reverse it for monsters
(Kalorian) monsters being able to track down players
(Kalorian) monsters being able to form up in groups
(Kalorian) know when its out numbered
(Kalorian) and will tactically retreat
(Kalorian) to get more help
(Kalorian) Think of this stuff as you discuss monster AI and emotions.
(Kalorian) Any opening comments?
(Kalorian) Ok then lets talk about other game AI,
(Kalorian) what you liked and disliked
(Kalorian) any comments on that?
(Kalorian) <Chybi> Ok, bye, mind saying bye to everyone for me
(JelloCube27) Hey guys
(JelloCube27) I think that two things are important in the monster AI discussion
(JelloCube27) The first is how the game plays, obviously, and what will work game wise
(JelloCube27) The second is try to keep in mind how monsters would act naturally if they were real
(JelloCube27) How would a giant spider move? I'm sure Kalorian has a graphic picture
(JelloCube27) How would zatra have scattered about?
(JelloCube27) Try to balance between the game mechanics and the monsters natural movement
(Nazzy) well there are certain things that i think should be avoided in Monster AI
(Nazzy) such as, random animals just comming at you when there on the horrison
(Nazzy) ala WoW
(Nazzy) and, also
(Nazzy) make them so they can think
(Nazzy) no get stuck behind objects
(Kalorian) Yeah I hate that too lol. You sneeze and a monster comes running at ya in WoW
(Nazzy) and just give up chassing you when they get to a certain point
(Nazzy) but also
(Nazzy) on the other end of the spectrum
(Nazzy) if there way behind you when chassing you, dont make em keep chassing you make em give up
(Nazzy) just kind of makes it more plausible
(Stant) I feel Daria could benefit from using real life examples on how monsters react. Bunnies are timid and run away no matter how many there are, Wolves hunt in packs, Wolveriens are solo and will attack everything in a hundered yards, blue whales couldn't give a crap about what ges on around them, hippos are huge and try to kill anything non-hippo on sight...
(Stant) That in mind, a solo wolf will pose no threat because unless it's extremely hungry, it'll just stalk... Once joined by the pack, it's all over for it's victim..
(Stant) a blue whale solo or in a full pod will pose no threat even if you're agressive...
(Kalorian) well wow has a system like that somewhat
(Kalorian) yellow colored monsters will not attack unless attacked
(Kalorian) while red colored monsters will attack in site
(Stant) vultures will never give up the hunt no matter how alive you seem. ;P
(Kalorian) and if agro (aggrevate a monster) near a camp it usually pulls the hwole camp on you
(Stant) yeah, I don't want to get into this red monster, yellow monster on screen stuff, not ever played WoW, I don't know how that is handled...
(Kalorian) was just saying
(Stant) if it's just a hue added or if it's only on the name...
(Stant) I'd rather not know at all and just have monsters react. =D
(Stant) makes things more interesting.
(Kalorian) I see
(Kalorian) agree somewhat. and noted.
(Kalorian) noted your concerns as well nazzy
(Kalorian) just forgot to type it
(Stant) as for movements, like I said, a solo wolf will do nothing except follow, a pack will attack you... Most animals are in groups save for a few types that would rather be alone...
(Stant) some are very agressive until you kill one or two, then they head for the hills so to speak.
(Stant) and birds learn to never fly over your house again if you constantly shoot a BB gun. =]
(Kalorian) ok lets not talk about neural networks or I am sure the wookie will have to kill you
(Stant) so if monsters are always attacked by guards near a town, eventually they learn to stay a safe distance away and stalk newbies.
(Kalorian) ahh there is that dreaded L word again
(Stant) learn. ;P
(Kalorian) its a nightmare for programmers from what I've heard lol
(Kalorian) involves neural network programming or something of the sort
(Kalorian) but yeah I agree
(Kalorian) some basic form of learning should be implemented
(Kalorian) jello you are gonna need to re-enter into the queue.. itonly tracks your username
(Stant) well, I'm not saying program in the learning effect, but at least use that as the reasoning for why monsters never run right through a town.
(Kalorian) yeah agree.
(JelloCube2) people.. take the floor
(JelloCube2) this is a discussion
(JelloCube2) that idea is impossible
(JelloCube2) damn you and your server limits
(Kalorian) there is no harm in stating the idea
(Kalorian) it may spur other options
(Kalorian) to that idea
(Kalorian) the only harm in an idea is an unknown idea
(Kalorian) as no one can benefit from it
(Kalorian) ok so no other thoughts or comments?
(Kalorian) everyone was in a hurry to move to this subject to say nothing eh?
(Kalorian) well type !floor and you get floor
(Kalorian) my script deletes most pms
(Kalorian) err PM's
(Gazeibo) Well, i've read everything which has been said so far, and i like alot of the ideas set forward. With regards to monster AI though i think they should be able to attack in packs, unlike in Akarra where you had to lure the pack in places like the Eastern Gate where this was abused for maximum effect in the courtyard
(Kalorian) I agree
(Kalorian) I want monsters to recognize being out numbered or out gunned
(Kalorian) and able to respond
(Gazeibo) Yeah, and with regards to fear again if it were to be implement would monsters have 'fear' too?
(Gazeibo) If a 10 man fellowship rounds on a bunny ofcourse it is going to be very scared
(Kalorian) yes it would probably be paralyzed in fear
(Gazeibo) Also, i think monsters should be able to hunt areas rather than remain stationary
(Kalorian) there are 2 more on the queue after Gazeibo and after that most likely the CD will end.
(Kalorian) I agree as well Gazeibo
(Gazeibo) so people can't get the co-ords for a place and move straight between spawns
(Kalorian) I want to avoid camping
(Kalorian) and harvesting monsters for items
(Gazeibo) it would make the game less monotonous when solely exp'ing
(Kalorian) I would love to see most 'legendary' items in pieces and found through out the world via monsters or quests
(Kalorian) yep I agree.
(Kalorian) Anything else Gazeibo?
(Gazeibo) Yeah, some 'legendary' item pieces could even be picked up right at the beginning of the game, giving yourself more long-term objectives in the game
(Kalorian) decent idea
(Kalorian) Hello Paddy - Community Discussion Monster AI & Emotions currently. If you have some thoughts Pm me !Floor and you will be added to the community
(Gazeibo) For example, each sector has a long-term quest in it, once completion is ascertained you gain access to another
(Gazeibo) let that be a quest, discovering something, or acquiring a special item allowing you to teleport there
(Kalorian) @Gazeibo - maybe more so rumors or a piece of paper that gives you information on such items. But I wouldn't want to see 100 people running around with the Firery Blade of Newb Immolation
(Kalorian) but we need to stay on topic
(Kalorian) we will have a large item CD in the future I am sure.
(Kalorian) I expect the room to be packed then
(Gazeibo) ;p indeed
(Kalorian) is that it Gazeibo? not trying to rush ya off or anything just want to make sure others get the floor
(Gazeibo) With regards to monster AI again, monsters taking advantage of players in battle would be interesting. If you were to critical fumble (or equivalent) a monster for example could change attack to take advantage, like a player could
(Kalorian) interesting thought,
(Kalorian) so monsters would know to use special abilities
(Kalorian) when a player reaction is detected
(Gazeibo) Eg. a magic attack and a physical attack
(Gazeibo) magical attacks may not be used against people with defence against such magic attacks from customised items
(Gazeibo) so a physical attack could be prompted to be used against the player
(Gazeibo) I'm finished
(Kalorian) ty for input
(aiRWaLKRe) Gazeibo almost said this...
(aiRWaLKRe) what about monsters that would attack other monsters? ( like snakes attacking rats ) or say an enemy bandit archer hits a bear that got inbetween u and bandit, the bear would decide to go after bandit cause it got attacked by bandit first
(Kalorian) how useful would this be in the world?
(Kalorian) would it turn out to be a greater inconvenience to the player hunting?
(Kalorian) having to 'compete' for kills against AI?
(aiRWaLKRe) it would change the fact that u hav to hack and slash everything urself
(Kalorian) I can agree that possibly lesser races waring in the forest for territory
(Kalorian) but the player should not benefit from AI vs AI combat
(aiRWaLKRe) ao an ai vs ai fight doesnt drop anything usfull but mabye a bit of money
(aiRWaLKRe) it helps to take away from the hack and slash the world for urself
(aiRWaLKRe) might be fun to watcha monster battle royal
(Kalorian) would be a nice emersion effect
(aiRWaLKRe) yeah makes it a bit more relalistic like life
(Nazzy) well, this was basicaly just to make sure on the packs front
(Nazzy) that basicaly if your in an fs (or what ever)
(Nazzy) and you get attacked by a pack
(Nazzy) instead of the usual MMORPG where they take it person by person
(Nazzy) and one of you gets mawled
(Nazzy) that they could possibly distribute it evenly
(Nazzy) or even encricle the fs
(Nazzy) and another note on packs
(Nazzy) that possibly they could work together
(Nazzy) say there are two packs in the area
(Kalorian) Nazzy you are touching on a future CD
(Nazzy) want me to stop?
(Kalorian) Monster / Personal / FS Tactics
(Nazzy) kk even ;p
(Kalorian) thewreck wanted me to do it for this one
(Kalorian) but I knew it would be too long of a CD
(Kalorian) so we bumped up for a future one.
(Kalorian) but yes I agree
(Kalorian) and noted.
(Nazzy) okey dok
(|Paddy|) Thank you
(|Paddy|) My idea revolves around tactics or a group of enemies
(Kalorian) well feel free to share them
(Kalorian) can bring ideas for the next discussion
(Kalorian) in the mean time if anyone else has FINAL comments on Monster AI & Emotions please enter the queue now
(|Paddy|) in akarra there was the basic idea that a group of monsters could gang up on you
(Kalorian) I will be closing the QUEUE in 9 minutes
(|Paddy|) some attacked from a distance
(Kalorian) sorry paddy.
(|Paddy|) some at close range
(|Paddy|) what happens if the monsters are smarter than that
(|Paddy|) in theory they should be able to tell how well defended some character are and how dangerous they are
(Kalorian) yes I agree
(|Paddy|) so they should be able to judge who would be attacked and not
(|Paddy|) and who they needed friends to attack
(Kalorian) ok now that I have to disagree on somewhat
(Kalorian) I look at WoW
(Kalorian) and anytime a priest or paladin heals
(Kalorian) every monster attacks that healer
(Kalorian) its called heal agro
(|Paddy|) im not taking it to that extent
(Kalorian) its annoying as heck and very unrealistic and makes gameplay painful for certain classes
(Kalorian) I agree they should be able to take a look at players
(|Paddy|) Im saying if there is a main fighter, surely monsters will realised he is a main threat
(Kalorian) and be like this guy needs 2 wolves
(|Paddy|) and group around him
(Kalorian) and this one 3 and this one 1
(Kalorian) but looks are decieving. Things aren't always as they appear
(Kalorian) I agree with what you are saying.
(Kalorian) but having it more random based who is attacked is more feasible
(|Paddy|) My other idea is strategic placment of enemies
(Kalorian) than judging based on levels
(Kalorian) hehe you will have to be sure to attend the next CD heh
(|Paddy|) put it this way
(|Paddy|) in daria there will be a complex array of terrain
(|Paddy|) some is more inaccesable than others
(|Paddy|) Monsters could say, occasionally ambush players
(Kalorian) thewreck stated he wants that
(Kalorian) so yes I agree with ambushing
(|Paddy|) By either hiding in bushes or standing behind a tree
(|Paddy|) and firing at players
(Kalorian) agreed. you missed the earlier discussion
(Kalorian) on player perceptions
(|Paddy|) my apologies if i bring up points already raised
(Kalorian) being able to smell, hear, track etc.. something in the air or other things
(Kalorian) its ok
(|Paddy|) but what im really getting is at
(|Paddy|) the monsters live in the wilderness, or the forests
(|Paddy|) and the characters dont
(|Paddy|) In some terrain monsters could move faster than players
(|Paddy|) yet if monsters are lured out of their terrain
(|Paddy|) they are hindered in some manner
(Kalorian) Agreed, but then players have no chance at escape?
(|Paddy|) not necessarily
(Kalorian) there is a fine line between inconveniencing the player and frusterating the player
(|Paddy|) i completely agree
(|Paddy|) if u played akarra
(|Paddy|) you would have known about nightmare
(|Paddy|) Monsters will only chase so far
(|Paddy|) (i just had another idea) but it has nothing to do with monster ai so i wont raise it
(|Paddy|) thank you for your time
(Kalorian) ok the queue closes at 4
(Kalorian) which is now
(Kalorian) know final comments?